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ReginaldSMith

ReginaldSMith

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Process

Process doesn't simply mean light on emulsion or light on a sensor. The process begins with a thought and ends with an image. What takes place in between involves far more than electronics or chemistry.
 

faberryman

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Here's a Robert Frank quote that for me gets to the heart of it.
“When people look at my pictures I want them to feel the way they do when they want to read a line of a poem twice.”
Robert Frank
He is suggesting that the picture contains human emotion, like the poet infuses into his language.
Can that happen when you are not present (in the same light) as the subject?
That quote express his desire for a response, not a inherent quality in a photograph.
 

Berkeley Mike

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Here's a Robert Frank quote that for me gets to the heart of it.
“When people look at my pictures I want them to feel the way they do when they want to read a line of a poem twice.”
Robert Frank
He is suggesting that the picture contains human emotion, like the poet infuses into his language.
Can that happen when you are not present (in the same light) as the subject?
I don't agree; he is describing his goal to engage the need to participate in the communication. The consequent experience is after the presentation of the image. Stepping back a bit...where does photography begin and end? Conceptualization, capture, production, experiencing the image?
 
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ReginaldSMith

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That quote express his desire for a response, not a inherent quality in a photograph.
He speaks of "my pictures" to suggest he is the poet using photography as the communication medium instead of words. In short, an exchange of human emotion.
 
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ReginaldSMith

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MattKing

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It sounds like you have drawn a line in the sand, such that images produced by AI are not photography even if the input is a list of desires from the human.
Not what I said at all.
AI produced photography is just as much photography as human produced photography.
Just as a traffic camera produces photography.
If you try to contort the word "photography" into something that includes some parts of photography but excludes others, you are just distorting the language.
You can add qualifiers and limiters to the word: dental photography, studio photography, micro-photography, Instagram photography, street photography, etc., etc. and you can then discuss the result.
 

faberryman

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He speaks of "my pictures" to suggest he is the poet using photography as the communication medium instead of words. In short, an exchange of human emotion.
He is using an image, like words, as a means of communication. Not all photographs elicit emotion, and those that do, may elicit one emotion is some, a different emotion in others, and no emotion in yet others. Therefore, emotion is not something inherent in words or a photograph. Emotions are inherent in (normal) humans.
 
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faberryman

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You can add qualifiers and limiters to the word: dental photography, studio photography, micro-photography, Instagram photography, street photography, etc., etc. and you can then discuss the result.
Other qualifiers include film photography and digital photography.
 
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ReginaldSMith

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Not what I said at all.
AI produced photography is just as much photography as human produced photography.
Ok, that's clearer yet. You attach no human spirit to the essence of photography then.

Thanks for making your position more clear. I hope others can be as clear too.
 
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ReginaldSMith

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He is using an image, like words, as a means of communication. Not all photographs elicit emotion, and those that do, may elicit one emotion is some, a different emotion in others, and no emotion in yet others. Therefore, emotion is not something inherent in words or a photograph. Emotions are inherent in (normal) humans.

I suspect that "emotionless" is a rare state for anyone viewing photographs. Ref: https://www.the-emotions.com/list-of-emotions.html

What do you think is the essence of photography then?
 
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ReginaldSMith

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We are already in a world of sex robots. People are having "sex" with robots, and others are proposing that the robots have rights that need to be protected. Presumably, robots will have sex with robots, but at that point, is it reasonable to call that activity "sex?" Is it reasonable to call robots "male and female" even? Is there nothing notably or fundamentally different about the activities of robots and humans?

If robots can be photographers, are we happy with them being judges too?
 

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We are already in a world of sex robots. People are having "sex" with robots, and others are proposing that the robots have rights that need to be protected. Presumably, robots will have sex with robots, but at that point, is it reasonable to call that activity "sex?" Is it reasonable to call robots "male and female" even? Is there nothing notably or fundamentally different about the activities of robots and humans?

If robots can be photographers, are we happy with them being judges too?
Worked in acute care psych for 10 years. I'm no sure that I agree with the list, presented as some authority, as it seems more derivative of feelings than feelings themselves. This is critical in counseling.

Aside: A camera cannot see but only view a reality, something very different from the way that we see. Our view, our impression of reality, is an assemblage of smaller segments into a gestalt that is effected by anticipation, memory, and the constant updating with new experience. Part of being a photographer is understanding that difference and accounting for it in capture. On one hand we adjust the machine for useful exposure, on another we frame and focus further qualify the capture towards meaning, whether we understand it at that moment or not..
 
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ReginaldSMith

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One of the greatest: 'Your photography is a record of your living, for anyone who really sees.' - Paul Strand

To which I would add my mentor's oft quoted axiom: "Every photograph is a picture of the photographer who took it." (Thank you David, wherever you are.)


 

MattKing

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Ok, that's clearer yet. You attach no human spirit to the essence of photography then.

Thanks for making your position more clear. I hope others can be as clear too.
Now ask me whether I attach human spirit to the essence of photography of exceptional value and meaning.
The answer would be substantially different, and quite a bit longer (and I would hope more nuanced).
It is a serious error to seek to find truth in the assignment of labels.
 
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ReginaldSMith

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If one can't find words for the essence of their photography there are really two possibilities. Poor language skill, or a thoughtless pursuit.

Essence of things is not ineffable. What are the traits of a thing without which it's no longer that thing?

The quotes I've cited all relate to essence, and include a human element. I don't believe anyone in this thread has assigned any human values to "photography" as a part of it's essence. And, I'm extremely surprised by that.
 

MattKing

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If one can't find words for the essence of their photography there are really two possibilities. Poor language skill, or a thoughtless pursuit.
Oh but I can, but the words don't define photography, they are particular and they relate to particular examples and types of photography.
To quote Lee Friedlander: "I only wanted Uncle Vernon standing by his own car (a Hudson) on a clear day, I got him and the car. I also got a bit of Aunt Mary’s laundry and Beau Jack, the dog, peeing on the fence, and a row of potted tuberous begonias on the porch and 78 trees and a million pebbles in the driveway and more. It’s a generous medium, photography. "
Photography is a medium - something you pour whatever you decide into it, with the hope that something comes out.
There is no limit to what form that photography can take. And it is unwise to try to pin it down with a particular set of rules or definitions.
 

blockend

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The issue is a practical and a philosophical one. For people who reached maturity before the millennium, the word photograph meant print. Prints could be 6 x 4" in an envelope from the high street lab, beautiful 16 x 20"s to frame on a wall, or smudgy dot screen pictures in the newspaper, but all were tangible hard copies on paper. A significant minority shots slides exclusively of course, and viewed photography as a presentational medium to an invited audience in darkened rooms. Digital photography is like a much expanded version of the latter, people showing images created largely in the camera, directly to a sympathetic audience. The main difference is a boring "slide" is no longer under the control of the chap with the button.

Camera technology is such that someone can press the shutter on an image in the viewfinder, and focus, exposure, colour balance, tonality will be optimised for transmission to thousands of people in seconds. That satisfies the aspiration of most photographers, who are content to defer process to Canon, Adobe, Google or whoever for their content exclusively. Clearly some people baulk at that access/imposition according to temperament, and want something they feel in control of.

Digital cameras are a hangover from an earlier era. They are sold on the basis of larger, sharper, quicker attributes of the film world, which are redundant to the overwhelming majority in the electronic viewing age. A smartphone image can fill a laptop screen more than adequately, and a M43 shot shows corner to corner sharpness and impeccable resolution even on my large monitor. With the exception of professionals who pay the mortgage from their work, most digital photographs rarely if ever make it to a print size which exploits the camera's capabilities.

I'm pragmatic about developments. iphones continue to be the default photographic tool, the technological Swiss Army Knife promised in the 1950s. Digital cameras will still sell to people obsessed with the things photographers have always obsessed about. Film cameras appeal to those who see the print as the natural culmination of a photographic process requiring visualisation, maths and chemistry. Or just the novelty of pressing a shutter where the click is not an audio simulation. What's undoubtedly the case is in embracing access we've handed over ownership to those who mediate our pictures for their purposes, not ours.
 

moose10101

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Oh my, I didn't mean it that way. I meant a SERVICE would compile miles of video for the purpose of selling it frame by frame to those who want to pay for it.
It wasn't at all about copyright issues or IP. It was about the concept of remotely capturing images in the new age of the digital realm.

Remote capture of images predates the digital age by half a century.
 

jtk

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If one can't find words for the essence of their photography there are really two possibilities. Poor language skill, or a thoughtless pursuit.

Essence of things is not ineffable. What are the traits of a thing without which it's no longer that thing?

The quotes I've cited all relate to essence, and include a human element. I don't believe anyone in this thread has assigned any human values to "photography" as a part of it's essence. And, I'm extremely surprised by that.

Guess you must be right, and everybody else must be wrong. HOWEVER, " essence" is only a word. Like any other word it means nothing without context. In your case, prolix prose seems to overpower any idea you may be struggling to express. You're a fine photographer, but....
 
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ReginaldSMith

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And it is unwise to try to pin it down with a particular set of rules or definitions.
Rules and definitions? Not my interest at all. Essence has nothing to do with rules or definitions. I'm not looking for rules or definitions - - that's the other guy in the other thread.
 
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ReginaldSMith

ReginaldSMith

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Guess you must be right, and everybody else must be wrong. HOWEVER, " essence" is only a word. Like any other word it means nothing without context. In your case, prolix prose seems to overpower any idea you may be struggling to express. You're a fine photographer, but....
It wasn't that difficult. The context for my use of the word "essence" was photography. That's about as sharp a context as the word is ever used for. And yes, anything philosophical (Forum heading) is likely to involve words, and the ideas they attempt to describe. I can't help but notice reading back through here how much resentment is behind so many posts. "How dare you ask such an impertinent question of me!" is pretty much a summary.

I'm puzzled by the difference in beliefs between the most notable artists in the history of photography and the modern camera owner. I am trying to understand what it means for the future of photography in the arts.
 

faberryman

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I think the problem is that you are confusing photography with art. Take painting. Painting is (roughly) applying a color pigment to surfaces. You can paint model airplanes, or houses, or the Mona Lisa. You can use brushes or spray it on or apply it in a myriad of other ways. Robots can paint cars in factories. It is all painting. Photography is like that. It is (roughly) creating images with light. It can be done in all sorts of way for all sorts of purposes. You are trying to dress up a simple concept with a lot of unnecessary baggage.
 
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