I really like the results I get out of Phoenix so even if Phoenix 2 was just a larger latitude version of Phoenix I'd be happy. Initial photos definitely look promising in that regard
Me as well. I like Phoenix I's look. The sample pics of version II still looks leaning to the red. So, I'm curious to hear/see what improvements version II has over I... But I'll wait for 120, first.
As far as the leaks go, it appears Phoenix II will ship in both 135 and 120 from launch, unlike Phoenix and Red.
Some of the sample images appear to be 6x6 shots, too.
I have noticed no real marketing "propaganda" behind Opticolour. Just very factual info on what exactly it is they have been doing, what went well, what went wrong. An acceptable level of transparency imo.
Hats off to both companies for a great achievement. In particular, imo, to Orwo, who very quietly came out with something that wipes the floor with Harman Phoenix version I.
Don't get me wrong: I will buy a lot of of Orwo NC200 AND Phoneix II if I like them both based on my tests. More new film from anyone is fantastic news.
I thought the same. Pretty underwhelming samples.
Based on those alone, the new Orwo 200/Opticolour 200 is a far more mature and interesting product.
It's puzzling some people are excited by this release while the Orwo 200 release is going basically unnoticed.
The long and short of it is that the Orwo/ Inoviscoat 200 speed C-41 product is very likely essentially Adox Color Mission when fully masked and something like Lomochrome 92 when partially masked.
Part of the equation is probably also that Orwo 200 only seems readily available in a protectionist North American country, while Harman distributes film world wide.
I think the different public reaction is because of the companies themselves. Harman is a well loved company, and they engage the community a lot. Inoviscoat / Orwo is relatively secretive, I know some people have concerns about the owner (I don't know the story), so it's hard to guess where they're going.
How do you mean, khh? I'm in continental Europe and was able to order some rolls from the distributor located in Germany and I received them without any issue.
You meant perhaps that it's not available in North America -> no American youtubers got their hands on it and started the social media boom-boom -> few people in the Anglosphere know or care about it?
Could be a factor, yeah.
How do you mean, khh?
This is why we're generally not enthusiastic about people calling countries 'protectionist' or otherwise trying to slip in politics.I was also scratching my head when @khh wrote that.
I would really really really like to know the story behind Adox Color Mission. How does a color film suddenly appear out of nowhere in Germany, produced by a mysterious partner who then suddenly goes out of business?
I guess everyone is now aware that Harman is launching a new product on 16th July at 1pm. Presumably Phoenix II
The leaked sample photos I've seen look much more like a conventional colour film. Big improvements in contrast and colour rendition. Small improvements in grain. It's still a 125ISO film with box speed of 200, and should be available from the get go in 135 and 120. No word in if it has an orange mask though. I've read that the Harman staff have used completely new couplers
Inoviscoat was set up by ex-Agfa engineers & acquired one of the two coating heads from Agfa's Leverkusen machine (the other is now owned by Adox & is in their factory in Bad Saarow). They seem to have started out using the residual components left over from Agfa & trying to interest various companies in marketing products they would make. Adox, Lomography, Orwo (pre-merger) and Bergger all made film products with them & Adox also did some runs of MC110 paper. Even so, I don't think the financing was that great (they seem to have been rather hand-to-mouth) and when things went south, Impossible (who were by far their biggest customer) took over & now rent time back to Inovis/ Orwo.
Colour Mission/ Orwo 200/ OptiColour 200 seems to have derived from a product Inovis were shopping around for quite a while, and its evolutions can be seen in the various odd Lomo films & Adox's Colour Implosion. It's clearly based off Agfa formulae, but built (necessarily) to a price. In other words, emulsion components and structural considerations that were readily achievable in the relatively recent past depended on a synchem hinterland that they don't really have any more (or at least have access to right now). In that aspect, I suspect that when Phoenix reaches its final form, it'll be at least equivalent to the Inovis CN material, but Harman will potentially be able to keep evolving it in ways that Inovis/ Orwo might struggle to do so without better funding.
Thanks for the explanation. The story had imagined was more or less along these lines, but I didn't know the details. Inoviscoat has a larger shelf of "spare parts" but very limited funds. Harman is in a financially stronger position, but they need to re-invent more. I do wish them both success. I am hoping that the partnership with OptiColour will give Inoviscoat more room to maneuver.
This is what I've guessed about the OptiColour partnership from the bits and pieces I've seen online:
Thus, we get a 1-year delay but we also get a better film.
- Inno announces an upcoming Orwo 200 to be released in 2024.
- Opti shows up and says "Hey, can we have a look?"
- Inno: "Sure!"
- Opti: "Not bad... Uhmm... we do have some thoughts... like, y'all really need an orange mask."
- Inno: "Sounds good on paper. Don't have the $$$. What if nobody buys it?"
- Opti: "Don't worry about the $$$. Get that orange mask done, slap my name on that thing, and I promise *I'll* buy it."
- Inno: "I guess I could do that."
- Opti: "Awesome."
Or, as others are seeing, they may have adapted from the emulsion set they make for Lomo 92 rather than actually enacting full masking. Which would be a lot less costly than having to build the complete colour/ contrast mask that Colour Mission and all regular C-41 films have.
Orwo 200 is only available out of Germany-it's not in stock anywhere in the US. Optik Oldschool and Kono are both in Germany, and are both the only source right now.Part of the equation is probably also that Orwo 200 only seems readily available in a protectionist North American country, while Harman distributes film world wide.
I am starting to think that the Optik product is just Lomo 92 adapted to 200ISO, seeing as the negatives show an extremely similar base color.
I strongly suspect that Lomo Metropolis, Orwo NC400, NC500, Lomo Color '92, and the new Optik 200 / Orwo NC200 are effectively a series of steady improvements where Inno is gradually learning how to turn the tools and IP that they have into a usable color film in the 21st century.
The problem with this statement is that it appears to be a suspicion based on nothing else but an axiomatic assumption that this is how it must have been going. There's no technical analysis underlying it, no clear model of how film emulsion R&D works nor any industry insight. It's really just conjecture of the most informal kind. Mind you, that's perfectly fine as it is, but let's call a spade a spade. It's just a wild guess.
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