Phoenix II - released 2025-07-16 - speculation and hints during the lead up

[thinkbrown]

I really like the results I get out of Phoenix so even if Phoenix 2 was just a larger latitude version of Phoenix I'd be happy. Initial photos definitely look promising in that regard

 

[blee1996]

Same here, I also like current Phoenix I a lot. It reminds me of Agfa Ultra 50 or Velvia 50, unique palette even though not neutral. Once I settled down on a good scanning and inversing workflow, I can get consistently good result. I hope Phoenix II will continue to improve without sacrificing its unique character.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Me as well. I like Phoenix I's look. The sample pics of version II still looks leaning to the red. So, I'm curious to hear/see what improvements version II has over I... But I'll wait for 120, first.

 

[Daniël Oosterhuis]

Me as well. I like Phoenix I's look. The sample pics of version II still looks leaning to the red. So, I'm curious to hear/see what improvements version II has over I... But I'll wait for 120, first.

As far as the leaks go, it appears Phoenix II will ship in both 135 and 120 from launch, unlike Phoenix and Red.
Some of the sample images appear to be 6x6 shots, too.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

As far as the leaks go, it appears Phoenix II will ship in both 135 and 120 from launch, unlike Phoenix and Red.
Some of the sample images appear to be 6x6 shots, too.

Great to hear! Thanks!

 

[Lachlan Young]

I have noticed no real marketing "propaganda" behind Opticolour. Just very factual info on what exactly it is they have been doing, what went well, what went wrong. An acceptable level of transparency imo.

Hats off to both companies for a great achievement. In particular, imo, to Orwo, who very quietly came out with something that wipes the floor with Harman Phoenix version I.

Don't get me wrong: I will buy a lot of of Orwo NC200 AND Phoneix II if I like them both based on my tests. More new film from anyone is fantastic news.

The long and short of it is that the Orwo/ Inoviscoat 200 speed C-41 product is very likely essentially Adox Color Mission when fully masked and something like Lomochrome 92 when partially masked. Optic Oldschool presumably were prepared to cough up the money for the (probably costly, possibly the most costly within that particular product) synthesis to be run. In other words, it's effectively a product sitting in the catalogue of potentially manufacturable films, if Orwo/ Inoviscoat don't have to cover the upfront coupler synthesis cost themselves. I can see there having been a bit of a push to get Orwo to do the fully masked product, especially if it was becoming clear that the divide between the partially masked one and Phoenix II might not be that much.

Harman don't have the benefit of easy access to knowledge about which bits of old & undefended Agfa IP might be more or less useful, but they do have strengths in areas that might benefit them more than Orwo as they proceed. The next big synthesis cost for Harman is probably the step between contrast and partial colour masking (in essence, much as per the difference between the use of Wratten #33 vs #29 & #61 in masking for colour separation processes) and full colour and contrast masking. It will be interesting to see which of the coloured couplers they've managed to make first. Most of the seemingly wayward habits will be because they want to avoid remaking the wheel multiple times. There will also probably still be a lot to be done in terms of intra-layer and inter-layer active components which will help to make for better sharpness and colour reproduction.

 

[dcy]

I thought the same. Pretty underwhelming samples.

Based on those alone, the new Orwo 200/Opticolour 200 is a far more mature and interesting product.

It's puzzling some people are excited by this release while the Orwo 200 release is going basically unnoticed.

I was very excited with the images I saw of the new Orwo 200, and underwhelmed with the ones I just saw of Phoenix II. They really do look like just Phoenix I --- I am *sure* the new film is an improvement (e.g. better dynamic range?) but that's not evident in the photos.

I think the different public reaction is because of the companies themselves. Harman is a well loved company, and they engage the community a lot. Inoviscoat / Orwo is relatively secretive, I know some people have concerns about the owner (I don't know the story), so it's hard to guess where they're going.

 

[khh]

Part of the equation is probably also that Orwo 200 only seems readily available in a protectionist North American country, while Harman distributes film world wide.

 

[dcy]

The long and short of it is that the Orwo/ Inoviscoat 200 speed C-41 product is very likely essentially Adox Color Mission when fully masked and something like Lomochrome 92 when partially masked.

I would really really really like to know the story behind Adox Color Mission. How does a color film suddenly appear out of nowhere in Germany, produced by a mysterious partner who then suddenly goes out of business?

Yes, Adox Color Mission / Lomo Color '92 cannot be anything other than Orwo / ex-Agfa, but I still want to know the story.

 

[albireo]

Part of the equation is probably also that Orwo 200 only seems readily available in a protectionist North American country, while Harman distributes film world wide.

How do you mean, khh? I'm in continental Europe and was able to order some rolls from the distributor located in Germany and I received them without any issue.

You meant perhaps that it's not available in North America -> no American youtubers got their hands on it and started the social media boom-boom -> few people in the Anglosphere know or care about it?

Could be a factor, yeah.

I think the different public reaction is because of the companies themselves. Harman is a well loved company, and they engage the community a lot. Inoviscoat / Orwo is relatively secretive, I know some people have concerns about the owner (I don't know the story), so it's hard to guess where they're going.

That makes sense, @dcy , if one knows the history of these companies and has developed a sense of loyalty towards them, or understands the path they're taking, then clearly these backstories are of relevance. Me I'm just an opportunistic photographer and I will buy mainly what gives me the results I want.

That said I do like continuity so if this Orwo is going to make this stuff for a year and then disappear, I will never touch anything they make ever again - same thing I'm doing with Adox film.

Let's wait for some official Phoenix II reviews/samples, it's really too early to judge from those leaked samples hopefully.

 

[dcy]

How do you mean, khh? I'm in continental Europe and was able to order some rolls from the distributor located in Germany and I received them without any issue.

You meant perhaps that it's not available in North America -> no American youtubers got their hands on it and started the social media boom-boom -> few people in the Anglosphere know or care about it?

Could be a factor, yeah.

I was also scratching my head when @khh wrote that. My understanding was that Orwo / Opticolor 200 is currently just available in its pre-release (sans-halation layer) in Germany or nearby.

 

[koraks]

Moderator note:

How do you mean, khh?

I was also scratching my head when @khh wrote that.

This is why we're generally not enthusiastic about people calling countries 'protectionist' or otherwise trying to slip in politics.
@khh consider yourself warned about this.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I would really really really like to know the story behind Adox Color Mission. How does a color film suddenly appear out of nowhere in Germany, produced by a mysterious partner who then suddenly goes out of business?

Inoviscoat was set up by ex-Agfa engineers & acquired one of the two coating heads from Agfa's Leverkusen machine (the other is now owned by Adox & is in their factory in Bad Saarow). They seem to have started out using the residual components left over from Agfa & trying to interest various companies in marketing products they would make. Adox, Lomography, Orwo (pre-merger) and Bergger all made film products with them & Adox also did some runs of MC110 paper. Even so, I don't think the financing was that great (they seem to have been rather hand-to-mouth) and when things went south, Impossible (who were by far their biggest customer) took over & now rent time back to Inovis/ Orwo.

Colour Mission/ Orwo 200/ OptiColour 200 seems to have derived from a product Inovis were shopping around for quite a while, and its evolutions can be seen in the various odd Lomo films & Adox's Colour Implosion. It's clearly based off Agfa formulae, but built (necessarily) to a price. In other words, emulsion components and structural considerations that were readily achievable in the relatively recent past depended on a synchem hinterland that they don't really have any more (or at least have access to right now). In that aspect, I suspect that when Phoenix reaches its final form, it'll be at least equivalent to the Inovis CN material, but Harman will potentially be able to keep evolving it in ways that Inovis/ Orwo might struggle to do so without better funding.

 

[Agulliver]

I guess everyone is now aware that Harman is launching a new product on 16th July at 1pm. Presumably Phoenix II

The leaked sample photos I've seen look much more like a conventional colour film. Big improvements in contrast and colour rendition. Small improvements in grain. It's still a 125ISO film with box speed of 200, and should be available from the get go in 135 and 120. No word in if it has an orange mask though. I've read that the Harman staff have used completely new couplers

 

[halfaman]

I guess everyone is now aware that Harman is launching a new product on 16th July at 1pm. Presumably Phoenix II

The leaked sample photos I've seen look much more like a conventional colour film. Big improvements in contrast and colour rendition. Small improvements in grain. It's still a 125ISO film with box speed of 200, and should be available from the get go in 135 and 120. No word in if it has an orange mask though. I've read that the Harman staff have used completely new couplers

I was able to preview some images from one of the test rolls delivered across the world and there is indeed a noticiable improvement in contrast, but the improvement in color rendition was not obvious to me. I didn't see the film and neither asked for more details, so no confidentiality agreement was broken.

 

[Daniël Oosterhuis]

I'm honestly starting to believe this is on purpose now, because it's getting a little ridiculous with how many times Phoenix II gets revealed or sold before the official launch...

 

[Disconnekt]

Camera Warehouse in Australia & TheFindLab have placeholders/pages on their site.

Findlab shows 11.99, not sure if for 35mm or 120.
CW is showing $12.73aud for 120, $14.95aud for 35mm (may be differend when "officially" released)

 

[Disconnekt]

Photo Specialist in the Netherlands is showing €13.99 for 120

Harman Phoenix II 200 color film 120mm

Looking for Harman Phoenix II 200 color film 120mm? Photospecialist COM - The Camera Superstore for Photo, Video, Lenses, Accessories and Supplies, Studio and Light, Binoculars, Telescopes, Computer, Media and more

www.photospecialist.com

 

[dcy]

Inoviscoat was set up by ex-Agfa engineers & acquired one of the two coating heads from Agfa's Leverkusen machine (the other is now owned by Adox & is in their factory in Bad Saarow). They seem to have started out using the residual components left over from Agfa & trying to interest various companies in marketing products they would make. Adox, Lomography, Orwo (pre-merger) and Bergger all made film products with them & Adox also did some runs of MC110 paper. Even so, I don't think the financing was that great (they seem to have been rather hand-to-mouth) and when things went south, Impossible (who were by far their biggest customer) took over & now rent time back to Inovis/ Orwo.

Colour Mission/ Orwo 200/ OptiColour 200 seems to have derived from a product Inovis were shopping around for quite a while, and its evolutions can be seen in the various odd Lomo films & Adox's Colour Implosion. It's clearly based off Agfa formulae, but built (necessarily) to a price. In other words, emulsion components and structural considerations that were readily achievable in the relatively recent past depended on a synchem hinterland that they don't really have any more (or at least have access to right now). In that aspect, I suspect that when Phoenix reaches its final form, it'll be at least equivalent to the Inovis CN material, but Harman will potentially be able to keep evolving it in ways that Inovis/ Orwo might struggle to do so without better funding.

Thanks for the explanation. The story had imagined was more or less along these lines, but I didn't know the details. Inoviscoat has a larger shelf of "spare parts" but very limited funds. Harman is in a financially stronger position, but they need to re-invent more. I do wish them both success. I am hoping that the partnership with OptiColour will give Inoviscoat more room to maneuver.

This is what I've guessed about the OptiColour partnership from the bits and pieces I've seen online:

• Inno announces an upcoming Orwo 200 to be released in 2024.
• Opti shows up and says "Hey, can we have a look?"
• Inno: "Sure!"
• Opti: "Not bad... Uhmm... we do have some thoughts... like, y'all really need an orange mask."
• Inno: "Sounds good on paper. Don't have the $$$. What if nobody buys it?"
• Opti: "Don't worry about the $$$. Get that orange mask done, slap my name on that thing, and I promise *I'll* buy it."
• Inno: "I guess I could do that."
• Opti: "Awesome."

Thus, we get a 1-year delay but we also get a better film.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Thanks for the explanation. The story had imagined was more or less along these lines, but I didn't know the details. Inoviscoat has a larger shelf of "spare parts" but very limited funds. Harman is in a financially stronger position, but they need to re-invent more. I do wish them both success. I am hoping that the partnership with OptiColour will give Inoviscoat more room to maneuver.

This is what I've guessed about the OptiColour partnership from the bits and pieces I've seen online:

• Inno announces an upcoming Orwo 200 to be released in 2024.
• Opti shows up and says "Hey, can we have a look?"
• Inno: "Sure!"
• Opti: "Not bad... Uhmm... we do have some thoughts... like, y'all really need an orange mask."
• Inno: "Sounds good on paper. Don't have the $$$. What if nobody buys it?"
• Opti: "Don't worry about the $$$. Get that orange mask done, slap my name on that thing, and I promise *I'll* buy it."
• Inno: "I guess I could do that."
• Opti: "Awesome."

Thus, we get a 1-year delay but we also get a better film.

Or, as others are seeing, they may have adapted from the emulsion set they make for Lomo 92 rather than actually enacting full masking. Which would be a lot less costly than having to build the complete colour/ contrast mask that Colour Mission and all regular C-41 films have.

 

[dcy]

Or, as others are seeing, they may have adapted from the emulsion set they make for Lomo 92 rather than actually enacting full masking. Which would be a lot less costly than having to build the complete colour/ contrast mask that Colour Mission and all regular C-41 films have.

The blog post from Optik specifically says that they pestered Innoviscoat until they added an orange mask:

"... Added bonus: The film has an orange base, which makes it easier to handle when scanning in the Lab.

What is Optik Oldschool's part in all that?

Months ago we teamed up with InovisCoat to run Lab tests with this film. It all started with a full factory tour followed by several meetings at InovisCoat's facitilies. Shortly after we started to get hands on rolls with test-coatings which we were to provide feedback on. We shot these with different cameras under several lighting conditions, scanned them with Frontiers, Noritsus and even did camera scanning sessions.

Initially the film had a green-ish base (known from NC500), so we were skeptical for the outcome but very pleasantly surprised when we ran the developed rolls through the scanners. We provided feedback on colours and scanning performance and kept questioning why the film could not have an orange base. Additional hours of work and weeks of preparation later and voilà, the orange base was born yielding even better results when scanned in the Lab!

We've never been this close to film production and feel delighted to be a part of it – we pride ourselves of having been influencial to the orange base becoming a reality."

 

[Wolfram Malukker]

Part of the equation is probably also that Orwo 200 only seems readily available in a protectionist North American country, while Harman distributes film world wide.

Orwo 200 is only available out of Germany-it's not in stock anywhere in the US. Optik Oldschool and Kono are both in Germany, and are both the only source right now.

I am starting to think that the Optik product is just Lomo 92 adapted to 200ISO, seeing as the negatives show an extremely similar base color.

 

[dcy]

I am starting to think that the Optik product is just Lomo 92 adapted to 200ISO, seeing as the negatives show an extremely similar base color.

From the sample pictures, I think it looks a lot better than Lomo Color '92.

I strongly suspect that Lomo Metropolis, Orwo NC400, NC500, Lomo Color '92, and the new Optik 200 / Orwo NC200 are effectively a series of steady improvements where Inno is gradually learning how to turn the tools and IP that they have into a usable color film in the 21st century.

Funny thing is that I've heard people say that Orwo NC400 is the same as Metropolis, and that Color '92 is the same as NC400/500, and now you're saying that Orwo 200 is basically Color '92. But I don't think anyone would say that Color '92 is Metropolis, let alone the new Orwo 200. ---- I think this is evidence of an evolutionary lineage.

 

[koraks]

I strongly suspect that Lomo Metropolis, Orwo NC400, NC500, Lomo Color '92, and the new Optik 200 / Orwo NC200 are effectively a series of steady improvements where Inno is gradually learning how to turn the tools and IP that they have into a usable color film in the 21st century.

The problem with this statement is that it appears to be a suspicion based on nothing else but an axiomatic assumption that this is how it must have been going. There's no technical analysis underlying it, no clear model of how film emulsion R&D works nor any industry insight. It's really just conjecture of the most informal kind. Mind you, that's perfectly fine as it is, but let's call a spade a spade. It's just a wild guess.

 

[albireo]

The problem with this statement is that it appears to be a suspicion based on nothing else but an axiomatic assumption that this is how it must have been going. There's no technical analysis underlying it, no clear model of how film emulsion R&D works nor any industry insight. It's really just conjecture of the most informal kind. Mind you, that's perfectly fine as it is, but let's call a spade a spade. It's just a wild guess.

To be fair he said 'I [...] suspect'. There is nothing 'axiomatic' in suspecting, and most posts on forums, including many of yours, are based on hypotheses, feelings and suspicions, which is probably normal for a discussion forum.

Of course, if you have:

1. any technical analyses on what this film is or is not (have you tested it in your workflow? Is it or is it not Lomo Colour 92 in your experiments? etc)
2. industry insights (do you have any connection with the industry? Can you disclose these connections for us?)

Please feel free to share. Otherwise dcy's conjectures are exactly as good as yours.