Permanent marker for darkroom work

[Chuck_P]

Does that work at all on a soggy print?
Same for the Chinagraphs. Can't imagine them doing very well on a wet emulsion - or a wet fiber base for that matter.

Well I've never really tried on a wet print as I think about it. I just always make the mark or note before it hits the trays. I imagine that it does not work well on a wet print.

 

[koraks]

I just went into the darkroom and pulled out a recent test print.

Brilliant! Thanks for the demo; this is quite convincing!!

 

[halfaman]

I just went into the darkroom and pulled out a recent test print. I knew that they gradations were 1/8 f/stops so I marked on the front of them, then I turned the print over and marked the rear of the print. I did this while the print was underwater, with the water at temperature of 24ºC, which is currently our tap water temperature.

I then took the print out and wiped it vigorously front and rear with with a squeegee, to emulate a worst case scenario. You will note that the colour of the ink is black under the water, but when dried (almost dry) on the seat on the verandah, the ink has changed to blue.

I rubbed and rubbed the squeegee over the front and rear of the print, where there was a blob of ink, it certainly streaked. However I know from decades of experience, if you let things dry, or put the paper though a paper dryer, which I have, then streaking is minimal to not being there.

This was done with a medium ball, black ink pen. Part number SPR4, which is manufactured in the USA.

Good to know. But I don't know if I can justify the cost of a Space Pen just to write on a wet paper (~€45 in a quick check on Amazon). Let's see second hand...

 

[koraks]

But I don't know if I can justify the cost of a Space Pen just to write on a wet paper (~€45 in a quick check on Amazon).

I just ordered one for €20. Shop around; you'll see the basic model retails at €19.95 in several places. Refills are €7.50 or so per piece, or (considerably) less if you buy a pack of several through certain sites.

 

[halfaman]

I just ordered one for €20. Shop around; you'll see the basic model retails at €19.95 in several places. Refills are €7.50 or so per piece, or (considerably) less if you buy a pack of several through certain sites.

Yeah, I found a second hand one locally for 15€.

 

[Truzi]

Perhaps a paint pen would work - similar to what junk yards (salvage yards) used to mark car parts.

I found a set with "fine" points that I use to mark the handles of cat toothbrushes, lol. The point isn't incredibly fine, but may work for your purposes. The pain is having to shake it a minute or so to get things flowing.

Paint pens are _supposed_ to work on rusty, greasy, or wet surfaces as well. However, I can only personally confirm the rusty surfaces.

I don't know they'd survive the developing process (plus you'd have to let the paint dry first), but it may work for you on a washed soggy print.

 

[Graham06]

Yeah, I found a second hand one locally for 15€.

The magic is in the pressurized refill. If you look on ebay you will see that many refills include an adapter to make it the shape of a Parker refill. You can get a Parker Jotter for around $10, though it looks like you've found one.

If your life includes enjoying time in the darkroom, it's worth spend money on things that make it more convenient and enjoyable.

 

[Graham06]

Brilliant! Thanks for the demo; this is quite convincing!!

+1

 

[Mick Fagan]

The model pen I have is the chrome bullet pen. It is very small when closed. To use it, you pull the cover off of the ball point end and slide it onto the top. This makes the pen long enough to work comfortably in your hand. The fact that there are no springs or anything like that, makes for something that works almost anywhere, including completely underwater.

The ink is a solid ink and as the ball point is rotated by using a writing motion, it heats the ink up to a liquid state, upon hitting the atmosphere it goes back to a solid state almost immediately. There is a slight tendency with wider ball point versions to start with a bit of extra ink, but once you are using it, it deposits the ink reasonably evenly, especially reasonably when one considers you are writing underwater.

My pen is always in my camera bag, where I use it for writing notes. I have over the years gotten some notes wet, this happened a couple of times when I was using a lead pencil. The rain soaked some of the sheets of paper and all of my notes were lost. Even though my note paper was terrible after getting wet, any writing with my space pen remained perfect. I just carefully laid out my notebook for it to dry.

There are waterproof notebooks, sort of A5 sized from the USA, but the cost was prohibitive and as the USA paper size was an odd size, I never went down that route.

 

[koraks]

I received my Fisher Space Pen and it writes on wet paper quite well; the backside of both FB and RC paper seem to take the ink easily. However...wet emulsion, no luck whatsoever. It just dents the surface; no ink flow at all.
These are the markings on the filling in mine:

Sounded a bit too good to be true - and apparently, it is.

I tried it on Fomatone MG FB paper, Fomaspeed RC and Fuji DPII color. Behavior is the same; the pen dents the wet emulsion and picks up little flakes of emulsion, but puts down no ink. On dry emulsion, no problem, but I can write on a dry emulsion with many pens/markers...

 

[Mick Fagan]

Hmm, I wonder if it is because you have a new pen and the roller ball is a bit on the stiff side.

I'm on the road at the moment, but will investigate by trying a brand new refill unit (still in the bubble wrapped packaging) when I get back home.

I've used my current pen, refill that is, for around 5 years, so it has seen a bit of use. I know that they tend to deposit a little bit of extra ink when you are starting as they get older and exude ink more readily. If you look at some of my markings you'll see splotches of ink at the start of my writing, which cleared up almost instantly.

I use (almost exclusively) Ilford MG RC paper, so that is my main experience. I have also used Kentmere RC paper, but I cannot remember if I've written on the emulsion side. I certainly know I've written on the rear underwater in a washing tray, but not the emulsion side.

I have also written on the emulsion and rear of RA4 paper, both Kodak and Fuji when underwater.

 

[EricTheReddish]

I also just got a Bullet Space Pen from Fisher myself. I haven't played with it on anything wet yet, but it doesn't want to write on blank (developed) film (it was Gold 200) on either side. Neither will it write on an aluminum can, which I tried just for fun. So I'm disappointed with it, but maybe as you say, Mick, it needs to get broken in.

 

[koraks]

Hmm, I wonder if it is because you have a new pen and the roller ball is a bit on the stiff side.

Frankly, I mostly wonder whether we're using the same product. If you could check the type markings on your filling, that would be most useful.
Tried it again the other day, but it really doesn't work. Went back to the felt-tip markers I used before; if I have to dry the emulsion anyway, I prefer the ergonomics (I've never been a ball point guy) and bold lettering of the markers to begin with.

 

[cowanw]

Aquarellable 8046 by Stabilo pencils write on most anything including film and paper. It is water soluble but plenty enough remains to make the markings legible.

 

[Fatih Ayoglu]

This is what I use

Pentel N50S-A Bullet Tip Permanent Marker​

It is advertised as suitable for surfaces exposed to water

 

[koraks]

Thanks for those suggestions @cowanw and @Fatih Ayoglu - do these write on the emulsion-side of still-wet paper?

 

[cowanw]

Thanks for those suggestions @cowanw and @Fatih Ayoglu - do these write on the emulsion-side of still-wet paper?

If you wipe the writing area with a finger to clear the liquid water away, the pencil will clear about 95% with a subsequent rinse, but is still just legible against white fibre paper; it washes off 100% with RC paper, but a man of your distinction wouldn't be using RC paper anyway. Also the pencil tip dissolves in liquid water which is why I wipe the surface of the print with my fingers. If you are looking for marking exposed areas of the print this is probably not your solution.
I would put a happy face here but my status does not allow me the use of the editing tools.

 

[koraks]

a man of your distinction wouldn't be using RC paper anyway

Hehe, nice touch - but I'll virtually only use this for color paper, which by definition is RC!

my status does not allow me the use of the editing tools.

Offtopic, but this is generally due to a client-side setting in the post editor. There's no policy on our side that limits people from inserting emoticons.
Edit: I've written something that may help solve this: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/using-rich-text-emoticons-in-a-post.212418/

 

[Fatih Ayoglu]

Thanks for those suggestions @cowanw and @Fatih Ayoglu - do these write on the emulsion-side of still-wet paper?

I’ve bought it to write numbers on negatives after the wash and it works.

When I go back home, will test on a scrap paper for you, after dipping in water for couple of minutes.

 

[Graham06]

Aquarellable 8046 by Stabilo

I think I have one of those, and I was excited by how it worked till I got things wet then I was 'nope nope nope'

My purchases from this thread have arrived. Will test and post results soon. Must remember to find and include the Aquarellable

 

[koraks]

When I go back home, will test on a scrap paper for you, after dipping in water for couple of minutes.

Thanks, that would be great - much appreciated!

 

[halfaman]

I’ve bought it to write numbers on negatives after the wash and it works.

When I go back home, will test on a scrap paper for you, after dipping in water for couple of minutes.

That would be interesting. I have a similar permanent/water resistant pen from Staedtler and it definitely doesn't write on wet emulsion side of RA4 RC paper.

 

[Graham06]

Here's a test of the markers and pencils I have. I would call everything except the Itoya DH30 a failure, and sadly that appears to have been discontinued. I found these:

Amazon.com

and these:

Amazon.com

online last night and bought a pack of the Milwaukee Inkzall pens.
My main use case is to be able to record the details of a test print before I forget them so its best recorded before I develop it. The Kaweco 5.6mm makes a smallish clear line that makes it through developing, but it is invisible in safelight red.

Kaweco Sketchup 5.6
Itoya Doubleheader DH-30
Sharpie Rub-a-Dub Laundry marker
Sharpie Fine point
Tombow Monor 6B
Mitsubishi Dermatograph 7600
Stabilo Aquarelle 8046
Staedtler Lumocolor permanent

 

[Fatih Ayoglu]

So, @koraks and @halfaman

Firstly, I do apologize for the late reply. I have tested the pen I have mentioned. If there is actually water, it still writes on the paper however it gets lighter and lighter by each stroke. However the writing is permanent and it stay if you wipe it.

If you wipe the paper first, not airblow dry, just wipe to take excess water off, then it writes better and darker.

The difference of this pen with others might be due to a chemical it has, it has a strong smell.

(tested on Fuji Glossy CAII)

 

[koraks]

@Graham06 and @Fatih Ayoglu thanks both for sharing your test results - this is very helpful!
It seems that on still wet paper (after squeegeeing off excess water), the pencil-type markers as well as the Pentel felt tip marker should work. That's encouraging. The Pentel marker has the advantage that the markings may remain even after the paper is rewashed (?)