Pentax: Two new compact film cameras planned - Pentax 17 announced June 2024

[xkaes]

Not sure I can take 72 photos in a couple of hours.

Pass it around to the others in attendance. You'll get through 72 pictures in no time -- and probably a few offers that will be hard to refuse!

 

[Pioneer]

If nothing else Pentax has stirred up a lot of interest in film and everyone here, and on several other forums, suddenly has lots to talk about. All over a brand new half frame camera.

 

[xkaes]

Let's not forget about the Rollei 35AF, and the other recent half-frames. Good to see. I hope the price of film and processing does not deter in the long run. Does this mean the price of used enlargers will be going up???

 

[Cholentpot]

Let us hope some camera makers do start making fine cameras again. What we need are some good photographic "instruments" or "tools" available new again. The old ones are serving us well, but they will need to be replenished eventually. Every camera available new today, except the Leica rangefinder film cameras, encourage the young generations to view film as a joke instead of the true way to do photography.

Erwin Puts:

"Most people assume that digital photography (a huge misnomer) is simply photography by other means than the use of film and chemicals. ... This attitude is not only widespread it is the conventional wisdom worldwide. Being universally accepted does not make it true."

"The essence of film-based photography is not only the fact that the mechanism of capturing an image and fixing it in a silver halide grain structure creates a final picture that can hardly be altered. The fundamental issue here is the fact that the laws of physics create the image, in particular by the characteristics of light rays and the interaction between photons and silver halide grains. Photography is writing with light, and fixing the shadows."

"Photography is not only intimately linked to the use of film, but in fact depends for its very existence on film."

AI will be the savior of film. Walk into court with notarized slides, easier for a jury to accept film as evidence than trying to understand how encryption works.

 

[blee1996]

AI will be the savior of film. Walk into court with notarized slides, easier for a jury to accept film as evidence than trying to understand how encryption works.

+1. That might become true. The whole Instagram crowd was started because the typical phone photos are technically too good to the point of boring, so you add noise, color distortion and fake film frames.

Now AI will make digital artwork even easier for everyone, so the new trend might be media (film, paper) that you physically manipulate. Just when streaming music becomes the norm, live performance seems to have a resurgence.

 

[xkaes]

You mean AI can't create a slide?

 

[Cholentpot]

You mean AI can't create a slide?

That's not the point. Goal of a trial is to convince a jury. It's easier to get your point across with something that is relatable.

'I point to these photographic slides, notarized by Mr. Smith, as genuine as seen at the scene photographic evidence.'

As opposed to

'These images on the screen are secure because of encryptions and have not been tampered with'

Film is more relatable than digital in some ways.

+1. That might become true. The whole Instagram crowd was started because the typical phone photos are technically too good to the point of boring, so you add noise, color distortion and fake film frames.

Now AI will make digital artwork even easier for everyone, so the new trend might be media (film, paper) that you physically manipulate. Just when streaming music becomes the norm, live performance seems to have a resurgence.

Media at then end doesn't feel right unless it's something you can hold.

 

[ant!]

That's not the point. Goal of a trial is to convince a jury. It's easier to get your point across with something that is relatable.

'I point to these photographic slides, notarized by Mr. Smith, as genuine as seen at the scene photographic evidence.'

As opposed to

'These images on the screen are secure because of encryptions and have not been tampered with'

Film is more relatable than digital in some ways.

Jury trials are very American. In many other countries, e.g. in Europe, it is a professional judge (in some cases supported by a smaller jury, which usually cannot overrule the judge) which needs to be convinced. And general knowledge changes as well. In a few years, many adults might not have film experience anymore, but know digital images...

 

[Cholentpot]

Jury trials are very American. In many other countries, e.g. in Europe, it is a professional judge (in some cases supported by a smaller jury, which usually cannot overrule the judge) which needs to be convinced. And general knowledge changes as well. In a few years, many adults might not have film experience anymore, but know digital images...

popular media will keep film at the fore front of public knowledge for a while to come.

As for juries, sure it's American. It's what I know, it's what I talk of. If film remains popular in America it'll keep on going in the rest of the world.

 

[armadsen]

Ricoh has announced that they are stopping orders in Japan due to demand greatly exceeding supply: https://petapixel.com/2024/06/20/no-surprise-pentax-17-pre-orders-vastly-exceeded-expectations/

Perhaps this camera won’t be a flop after all.

 

[ant!]

popular media will keep film at the fore front of public knowledge for a while to come.

As for juries, sure it's American. It's what I know, it's what I talk of. If film remains popular in America it'll keep on going in the rest of the world.

Ask a teenager about a diskette, cassette, CD. They might have heard about it, but not much personal experience with them, at most. Vinyl is different, maybe better comparable with film: a niche for enthusiasts of different sorts, but still not mainstream.
I think film is as popular in Europe as in America, but again, not mainstream.

 

[MattKing]

'I point to these photographic slides, notarized by Mr. Smith, as genuine as seen at the scene photographic evidence.'

I'm afraid photographic evidence doesn't work that way.
At least not in the trial courts I appeared as legal counsel in.
Negatives or slides do have advantages though.

 

[Cholentpot]

Ask a teenager about a diskette, cassette, CD. They might have heard about it, but not much personal experience with them, at most. Vinyl is different, maybe better comparable with film: a niche for enthusiasts of different sorts, but still not mainstream.
I think film is as popular in Europe as in America, but again, not mainstream.

cassettes are hip again. I have no idea why. It's all the rage.

I'm afraid photographic evidence doesn't work that way.
At least not in the trial courts I appeared as legal counsel in.
Negatives or slides do have advantages though.

Sure, I know. Submitted evidence doesn't work like this. Just getting a point across.

 

[xkaes]

Ricoh has announced that they are stopping orders in Japan due to demand greatly exceeding supply: https://petapixel.com/2024/06/20/no-surprise-pentax-17-pre-orders-vastly-exceeded-expectations/

Perhaps this camera won’t be a flop after all.

There are other possibilities. Their expectation of the interest may have been unrealistically low, so they produced few -- to protest themselves from complete failure -- or they may have intentionally produced too few to suggest greater demand than there actually is -- hoping to drive up demand. It wouldn't be the first time in the history of "business" that this has happened.

 

[xkaes]

I'm afraid photographic evidence doesn't work that way.

Ditto. I've been on lots of juries, and as a witness in trials, and never seen a slide, let alone a negative, presented. Not sayin' it doesn't happen!

 

[Cholentpot]

Ditto. I've been on lots of juries, and as a witness in trials, and never seen a slide, let alone a negative, presented. Not sayin' it doesn't happen!

Have you had photographs submitted for evidence? What happens if either side disputes photograph or footage due to claims of manipulation or AI? What if it's an estate case, sans jury and Judge wants photographic evidence of an object or some other scenario?

 

[mshchem]

Ricoh has announced that they are stopping orders in Japan due to demand greatly exceeding supply: https://petapixel.com/2024/06/20/no-surprise-pentax-17-pre-orders-vastly-exceeded-expectations/

Perhaps this camera won’t be a flop after all.

This is terrific news!

 

[Milpool]

More film vs digital. Shocking.

 

[MattKing]

Have you had photographs submitted for evidence? What happens if either side disputes photograph or footage due to claims of manipulation or AI? What if it's an estate case, sans jury and Judge wants photographic evidence of an object or some other scenario?

This question is so far off topic as to invite moderation - and it has come up before, and been moderated before.
Start a Conversation with myself or other people with some experience with photographic evidence, if you like.

 

[armadsen]

There are other possibilities. Their expectation of the interest may have been unrealistically low, so they produced few -- to protest themselves from complete failure -- or they may have intentionally produced too few to suggest greater demand than there actually is -- hoping to drive up demand. It wouldn't be the first time in the history of "business" that this has happened.

Surely no competent company would: release a product that they themselves thought — before release — would sell incredibly poorly, then proceed to heavily market it, only to be shocked that people want it.

I think Occam’s razor applies here. They forecast sales, and ramped up a production line before launch based on the competing goals of meeting demand and avoiding over producing and being left with unsellable products that they take a loss on. Demand for the camera is greater than they forecast. So, they’re stopping orders until production catches up.

I find the whole intentional scarcity to drive up demand thing implausible. All the demand in the world doesn’t do anything for you if you can’t sell products to the people demanding them. The only way it makes sense is if 1. You know you’ll be able to meet demand later, and 2. You’re confident that demand will remain pent up for the months-years it takes for production to catch up.

Ricoh selling only 100 cameras so that 1000 people will be sucked in by hype and want one they can’t get is worse business than selling 200 cameras to the mere 200 who want them without the hype.

 

[Twiggy]

Pentax's upcoming half-frame point and shoot style camera that they have been working on was recently released.

It looks decent, but it has one major issue, which is the price. During their product videos before, they have mentioned how they went with half-frame so it can be more affordable for younger people, which does work as it means twice as many shots per film. However the price is $549 Pounds, that's even more in american dollars, and especially canadian dollars, so on and so forth.
That's one glaring issue I think, for the target market.

Most young people would be better of fidning a vintage half-frame camera.

 

[MattKing]

Threads merged, and title updated.

 

[Cholentpot]

More film vs digital. Shocking.

I mean that's the whole debate over here once again. The 17 is an attempt to merge film with social media more seamlessly. Designer said so himself. The lens has a little fork and knife focus sign which is an obvious hat tip to people on the socials posting photos of their food.

I don't have an issue with this. Pander all you need, cameras need to move, film needs to get bought. Seems from the news coming out that its working. Camera is sold out just about everywhere. Can't ask for more than that.

 

[blee1996]

Good news, my preordered unit is shipped from B&H. That means they might have enough units for the first two waves. I did preorder pretty early, about few hours after the announcement.

 

[mshchem]

Good news, my preordered unit is shipped from B&H. That means they might have enough units for the first two waves. I did preorder pretty early, about few hours after the announcement.

This is great.

I suspect that there's several thousand cameras in people's hands now, or on the way.

Assembly is probably the bottleneck. Ramping up training, I am sure that the folks at Ricoh Vietnam will be working hard to meet demand. By Christmas should have plenty.