Pentax: Two new compact film cameras planned - Pentax 17 announced June 2024

ant! · Mar 13, 2024

The first film camera I ever shot was a Penti half frame that used the Rapid film cassette (the GDR/DDR version)

foc said:
View attachment 365278

My late father used a Penti as well, I remember that it had this funky color and a rod to wind. I can't remember photos from it though, I always thought most my childhood photos were from my mother's Werra. But on the other hand, those 80s black and white prints are quite bad quality, not sure if I would see the difference of there were half or full frame. I have to check them again, maybe the quality is actually what it is because of the format?
There are only a handful of color photos of me from just before the German unification from, summer 89 on a film my grandmother brought from a visit to the west. These are still great shots, and a big difference to the other photo's quality.

bfilm · Mar 18, 2024

A new PENTAX x BARFOUT! article, but no real new information. They introduced the camera prototype to two more Japanese photographers.

PENTAX Film Project

Short series PENTAX Film Project Club House Diary vol.8

"Iikawa: Since we are here today, I would like to ask both of you to try the prototype that we are now studying and give us your opinions."

skorpiius · Mar 19, 2024

brbo said:
But I understand why half-frame was an easy choice. Most of the mini labs should easily handle HF, square would be a nightmare.

That was a question I had. As someone who has never experienced half frame and lives where there's still a chain of drugstores who offer 1 hr* photo services, I was wondering how they might handle negs shot as half frame

*more like 4-24 hrs lately

Agulliver · Mar 19, 2024

skorpiius said:
That was a question I had. As someone who has never experienced half frame and lives where there's still a chain of drugstores who offer 1 hr* photo services, I was wondering how they might handle negs shot as half frame

*more like 4-24 hrs lately

My recollection is that most mini labs were made with the ability to recognise half frame? But they might well charge more, not for the processing but obviously if prints are involved it's double the number of prints...and possibly for scanning time a bit more might be charged. But I don't think half frame is a problem. Square photos on 135, and the non-standard frames and distance between frames that some pinhole cameras produce are definitely a problem.

Since the target audience won't generally be ordering prints, it's just scans they are after....so I would imagine there's no problem.

Someone who has run a lab such as @foc might well have much deeper knowledge of this.

foc · Mar 19, 2024

Agulliver said:
Someone who has run a lab such as @foc might well have much deeper knowledge of this.

Thank you for the mention. What I have to say only relates to my own lab and how we operated years ago.

Any Fuji Frontier I owned over 30 years didn't come with half frame capabilities. There was a 3rd party manual carrier but the important part was software adjustments but my local Fuji engineer wasn't too interested in helping with half frame and to be fair there was little or no customer interest in half frame until about 10 years ago.

The only way we could scan (Frontier or Pakon) half frame was to have the two images in the one full frame.
Like this (image from Analogue Wonderland)

To cut a long story short we made our own solution. I created an action in Photoshop that would separate, crop, and save each side of the half frame in the full frame scan. While it worked it was time consuming. The extra time involved could only be justified when prints were ordered. If it was develop and scan only, it wasn't worth it.

I did some simple research. I asked a few mail order customers would they prefer the above image or pay more for scans. All wanted the above image. I also Googled half frame developing and saw some other labs offering the same (as above) service. (this was 10-12 years ago)

My impression was that most of the half frame customers were new to film photography and liked the way the images were scanned. To them it was different and different was good. I never had a complaint from a half frame customer.

From the labs point of view, the half frame did require attention when scanning. The scanner software often had problems aligning the frames with in the scan area. The operator needed to pay extra attention with manual overrides now and again.

With modern 3D printing, I can't see a problem with automated negative scanning carriers being adapted and while the software is almost the same now as then, it is now easier to get help making changes to it.

cmacd123 · Mar 19, 2024

Agulliver said:
My recollection is that most mini labs were made with the ability to recognise half frame? But they might well charge more, not for the processing but obviously if prints are involved it's double the number of prints...and possibly for scanning time a bit more might be charged. But I don't think half frame is a problem.

late 80s - early 90s I did not have my Darkroom going and so I used the minilab at the loacal walmart. I would bring in enogh rolls that the Manager of the depertment would greet me as "Hello Mr. MacDonald".

When I would bring in a roll of Half frame that manager would say that they had to send it out and it would take a week. One day That manager was away and one of the staff helped me, I metioned that I had one roll of Half frame, and asked for the send out envelope. the Lad shook his head and smilled and said that they could do it there. so I let him.

came back after work a couple of days later and the normal manager was there and trying to figure out why one of my envelopes was so thick and about twice the price as the others. She basically came back to me with a questioning look, and I told her that the fellow who helped me really knew his stuff and said he could handle my Half Frame film. She asked to see one of my Negatives and took it over to the Noristsu printer and had an even more quizzical look on her face. She broght back the negative and you could tell that she had seen somthing she did not expect.

I assume that the Noritsu, detecting the half frame negative had automatically gone into half frame mode. Half frame was more popular in Japan, so I Japanese designed printer would likly just take it in stride.

brbo · Mar 20, 2024

I've seen half frame masks for Frontiers mentioned many times and assumed Frontiers could easily do it. Didn't know that it was a 3rd party item and that you still need to jump through the hoops to scan HF as @foc has now explained. Noritsus do it out of the box with no additional hardware or software tweaks. Pakons would need a bit of fiddling to get half frame support (same as with panoramic formats). I have no idea how Agfa machines would handle HF. Maybe @Agulliver could ask his lab lady (I think I read it not long ago that she is using an Agfa D-Lab)?

Agulliver · Mar 20, 2024

I'll ask next time I visit. She uses an Agfa DLab2 which is an impressive machine but a bit unusual in today's landscape.

I had also assumed that the half frame masks were a factory item for the more common Frontiers.

bfilm · Mar 20, 2024

Do the two halves of half-frame fall completely within the normal spacing for one normal frame of 24x36mm? If so, Pentax might just expect labs to scan normally and each scan be a diptych. Pentax has already touted the practice of creating diptychs with this new half-frame camera.

Although, considering that Pentax suggested the inclusion of auto-exposure is because they don't expect new users to be able to make proper manual exposures, it seems a lot to expect users would always use the camera accurately planning the diptychs. Many users might not always want to make diptychs, either. I suppose that the scans of the diptychs could always be separated into individual images in computer editing, though.

Cholentpot · Mar 20, 2024

bfilm said:
Do the two halves of half-frame fall completely within the normal spacing for one normal frame of 24x36mm? If so, Pentax might just expect labs to scan normally and each scan be a diptych. Pentax has already touted the practice of creating diptychs with this new half-frame camera.

Although, considering that Pentax suggested the inclusion of auto-exposure is because they don't expect new users to be able to make proper manual exposures, it seems a lot to expect users would always use the camera accurately planning the diptychs. Many users might not always want to make diptychs, either. I suppose that the scans of the diptychs could always be separated into individual images in computer editing, though.

For the most part yes. My Univex Mercury doesn't exactly though. Its framing is a little different.

blee1996 · Mar 20, 2024

foc said:
Thank you for the mention. What I have to say only relates to my own lab and how we operated years ago.

Any Fuji Frontier I owned over 30 years didn't come with half frame capabilities. There was a 3rd party manual carrier but the important part was software adjustments but my local Fuji engineer wasn't too interested in helping with half frame and to be fair there was little or no customer interest in half frame until about 10 years ago.

The only way we could scan (Frontier or Pakon) half frame was to have the two images in the one full frame.
Like this (image from Analogue Wonderland)

View attachment 365871

To cut a long story short we made our own solution. I created an action in Photoshop that would separate, crop, and save each side of the half frame in the full frame scan. While it worked it was time consuming. The extra time involved could only be justified when prints were ordered. If it was develop and scan only, it wasn't worth it.

I did some simple research. I asked a few mail order customers would they prefer the above image or pay more for scans. All wanted the above image. I also Googled half frame developing and saw some other labs offering the same (as above) service. (this was 10-12 years ago)

My impression was that most of the half frame customers were new to film photography and liked the way the images were scanned. To them it was different and different was good. I never had a complaint from a half frame customer.

From the labs point of view, the half frame did require attention when scanning. The scanner software often had problems aligning the frames with in the scan area. The operator needed to pay extra attention with manual overrides now and again.

With modern 3D printing, I can't see a problem with automated negative scanning carriers being adapted and while the software is almost the same now as then, it is now easier to get help making changes to it.

Thanks to ChatGPT, I was able to "develop" a short python script to split a batch of full frame scans into half frame files. It does assume that the camera has consistent spacing between half frames.

I use Nikon Coolscan V at home, with a strip of 6 full frames (12 half frames). Indeed sometimes the scanner will not align on the right edge, and I have to do manual offset. But most of the time, the scanner is ok to scan into 35mm full frame. And then my python script will process the entire roll in a few minutes.

Nowadays I typically do diptych with half frame cameras and I don't need to split anymore.

Bronson Dugnutt · Mar 20, 2024

Flatbed scanning software, epsonscan in my case, will usually detect each half-frame pair as a single 35mm frame if the entire strip is well exposed. Blank sections of film will cause misalignment.

If the two frames included happen to have very different densities I'll opt to scan them individually so the differential doesn't ruin both frames. Even with a 'good pair' the software autocorrection can be a bit shadow biased due to the extra rebate area in the center of the frame.

For analog's sake I'll throw in a mention of some obscure semi-half-frame (no pun intended) Pentax gear - their 35mm stereo adapter with viewer. It is designed for 45-55mm lenses effectively converting them to a stereographic, half-frame portrait length lens for 35mm film. Very niche but quite appealing if you have access to slide processing

foc said:
The first film camera I ever shot was a Penti half frame that used the Rapid film cassette (the GDR/DDR version)
View attachment 365278

Ahhhh, gorgeous. Makes the Demi look like an ugly duckling

foc · Mar 21, 2024

brbo said:
Noritsus do it out of the box with no additional hardware or software tweaks.

Noritsu software was much easier to customise. The last Frontier (just the RA4 printer processor for digital orders - no scanner) was a Fuji Frontier LP7700. It was a rebadged Noritsu QSS3704F and it ran the Noritsu software behind a Fuji interface. I was able to make custom print sizes, that didn't come pre supplied. For example, we created a print size (photo banner/panorama) 30x91cm / 12"x36".

Agulliver · Apr 3, 2024

Yesterday I asked the lady who operates my local lab how her Agfa DLab2 handles half frame, and she said it will produce two frames in one scan. Which doesn't seem to have been a problem in the past for customers.

GabrielC · Apr 17, 2024

Pentax has given some news for the future of its film project

The video is pretty long, but I guess the most important part is at the end. They’re apparently aiming to bring 4 different cameras to the market in the near(?)-future.
The 4 cameras will be chronologically :

The aforementioned half frame zone-focusing camera
A high-end compact camera (Contax T2-like, maybe)
A SLR (Guessing a 2000s camera equivalent chuck-full of electronics)
A fully mechanical SLR

Of course, it is not a given that they will be able to bring these 4 cameras, it will depend on Ricoh management and sales of each camera type.
However, these kind of news make me hopeful for the future of (35mm) film. This looks like a comprehensive and great line-up of cameras.

bfilm · Apr 17, 2024

GabrielC said:
The video is pretty long, but I guess the most important part is at the end. They’re apparently aiming to bring 4 different cameras to the market in the near(?)-future.
The 4 cameras will be chronologically :

The aforementioned half frame zone-focusing camera

A high-end compact camera (Contax T2-like, maybe)

A SLR (Guessing a 2000s camera equivalent chuck-full of electronics)

A fully mechanical SLR

Of course, it is not a given that they will be able to bring these 4 cameras, it will depend on Ricoh management and sales of each camera type.
However, these kind of news make me hopeful for the future of (35mm) film. This looks like a comprehensive and great line-up of cameras.

Yes, I saw this. Thanks for sharing here. If they do, indeed, get to the fully mechanical SLR camera, then it could be pretty interesting. Let's hope they make it that far and make something of real quality. Maybe they can make a small selection of manual mechanical lenses again to go with it. They could probably do well even with just 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm. Or perhaps to match their current selection of FA Limited lenses, the quirky focal length choices of 31mm, 43mm, and 77mm.

Disconnekt · Apr 17, 2024

bfilm said:
Maybe they can make a small selection of manual mechanical lenses again to go with it. They could probably do well even with just 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm. Or perhaps to match their current selection of FA Limited lenses, the quirky focal length choices of 31mm, 43mm, and 77mm.

Or at least aka some wide angle lenses to fill that gap a bit, mostly a 20mm & 24mm. Maybe a 28mm too, but that may clash with the 31mm though

cmacd123 · Apr 17, 2024

as the film camera lenes were eveolving, each generation was built on the previous. the Super takumars were repleced by the Super Multi Coated Takumars. which had additions to deal with the SP-F the first SMC pentax lenes for the early K models were rehoused versions of the Super Multi Caoted Takumar line, then they realized that they ziged when they should have Zagged, and came out with the SMC Pentax M series. (the olympus OM-1 moved everyone to much smaller Cameras)

I am sure that many of the SMC Pentax A Lenses were still based on tweeked versions of the old Super Takumars optical design. even if the housing were very different.

benderscameracorner · Apr 17, 2024

I think the reason so many people are disappointed is that they're not (yet) the target market. Their focus is reaching new film users and growing that market first, and makes sense.

They can start with a relatively simple, straightforward, easy to use camera that's several notches above the current 'reusable disposable' 35mm plastic crud in usability and quality, but still cheap enough to be a reasonably spontaneous or gift-style purchase for the 'film interested' alongside the current crop of Instax and Polaroid cameras.

People bitch about zone focusing being lame or a cop out, but forget that so many well regarded cameras used it... Olympus Pen series, Trip 35, XA2-4, later Minolta Hi-Matics, etc. And let's not forget that many street and other photographers use zone/pre focus regardless in order to shoot fast and get the shot.

Adding rangefinders or AF adds complexity cost, and the market for a new film cameras drifts downwards sharply once the price drifts north of a few hundred. Remember there's still millions of functional cameras out there on the used market which any new 35mm camera has to compete with, and with a few notable exceptions, most are still dirt cheap compared to what they cost new.

Now, not everyone wants to play in the secondhand market, and are happy to pay some amount of premium for a new camera with a warranty and support. But let's say Pentax eventually produce a lovely all-manual, mostly-metal SLR or rangefinder for US$1000, which would be an absolute minimum price (it'd probably be a lot more). That's a whole lot better than what Leica will charge you for anything new, for sure. But for an SLR... I mean, for under half that you can get a very tidy F2 or FM... and the cost a good CLA too.

Pentax/Ricoh, to their credit, are playing this very cautiously. They realise they're playing in a very niche market, and need to produce cameras they can actually produce a competitive product in.

With that in mind, I don't see any point in producing a modern AF SLR at this point. They're a dime a dozen, cheap and unwanted due to the lack of nostalgic hipster appeal and unlike the earlier manual cameras of decades prior, many still work without the problems the older cameras are now developing.

Personally I'd nix that idea, and replace it a simple 6x7 rangefinder, maybe fixed MF lens and electronic leaf shutter (with manual and AE controls) to keep costs down. Plenty of people out there would like a Mamiya 7, but also maintain ownership of both their kidneys.

Agulliver · Apr 18, 2024

The SLR that's in demand right now is the Canon AE1. I'm unsure why as it's nothing truly special, other than it uses the unorthodox shutter priority mode by default. It's a nice camera, I have one and it will certainly get some use, but I don't see it as special.

However, that's what "the kids" seem to be after right now. You can get a few hundred dollarpounds for a AE1 or AE1-Program kit in good condition. @benderscameracorner is 100% on the button saying that producing a mechanical or electromechanical SLR at this point would be shooting themselves in the foot. It might be what *we* want, but we are a tiny niche within a niche within a niche. Ricoh/Pentax are spending a considerable amount of money in R&D on the first camera and it's got to pay that back.

For the less fashion inclined, there are any numbers of Pentax K1000's out there, Spotmatics, Nikon SLRs, Minolta SLRs, Praktica SLRs, and so on....all of which can be had for a song.

Pentax look to be doing something very sensible. The half frame idea was a bit of a surprise but I am in no way surprised at zone focusing. It gives a bit of manual control that digital compacts and phones generally don't have - at least certainly not well implemented. The next camera being a "high end" compact is again right on the money because things like the Olympus Mju series are still fetching good money.

In fact I asked my local camera shop, which mostly sells used film gear these days, what cameras were most requested and the answer was "Canan AE-1 and the better compacts like the 90s Olympus models".

loccdor · Apr 18, 2024

Agulliver said:
The SLR that's in demand right now is the Canon AE1. I'm unsure why as it's nothing truly special, other than it uses the unorthodox shutter priority mode by default. It's a nice camera, I have one and it will certainly get some use, but I don't see it as special.

Possibly because they were a very popular camera with their parents and they know them from that. My Dad who was born in 1958 used a Canon AE-1 as his main and only camera from the 80s right up into the 2000s.

I prefer the Spotmatic myself but it's no huge difference.

Agulliver · Apr 18, 2024

Regarding medium format and other ideas.....the Pentax Photo instagram account says they haven't ruled anything out. However, the road map appears to be for 35mm cameras. Presumably there's a small chance that the cameras and film in general could be such a success that they consider bringing medium format into the mix. We'd all appreciate a nice 6x7 camera....but how many of the young people want one? I've certainly seen a few young girls out there with Hasselblads, but they definitely had an air of money about them.

I'm just glad that one of the old guard who is still involved in photography in some way has decided to make new film cameras. As the recent video says, it's really the last chance with the retired engineers who made this stuff originally becoming older and less likely to be around for long.

Nopo · Apr 18, 2024

My thought, about a half-frame camera by Pentax, is that they are not thinking of an American-European market as their sales yard, but rather Asia-Japan, a very different market from ours.

Carlos

brian steinberger · Apr 18, 2024

benderscameracorner said:
Personally I'd nix that idea, and replace it a simple 6x7 rangefinder, maybe fixed MF lens and electronic leaf shutter (with manual and AE controls) to keep costs down. Plenty of people out there would like a Mamiya 7, but also maintain ownership of both their kidneys.

Love this idea. I was thinking this and or bringing the Pentax 67 or 645 back into production.

brian steinberger · Apr 18, 2024

Agulliver said:
We'd all appreciate a nice 6x7 camera....but how many of the young people want one? I've certainly seen a few young girls out there with Hasselblads, but they definitely had an air of money about them.

I’d bet it’s more than you think. Most young photographers that I meet talk about moving up to medium format one day. Whether that’s financially feasible for them is another issue but the desire is there.

Pentax: Two new compact film cameras planned - Pentax 17 announced June 2024

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