Pentax: Two new compact film cameras planned - Pentax 17 announced June 2024

[xkaes]

Whatever they come up with has to be different in some important way(s) to whatever else if currently available or previously produced. That's a tall order.

 

[bfilm]

Whatever they come up with has to be different in some important way to whatever else if currently available or previously produced. That's a tall order.

I don't think this is true. In fact, this is a big problem in so much modern design. Modern designers are often obsessed with creating something new, even if it comes at the expense of creating something good.

People want the classics. As I mentioned before, Leica has made essentially the same camera for 70 years, and it has outlasted every other 35mm camera.

Especially today, when a USD 5,700 Leica rangefinder is the only new film camera available, another new film camera doesn't have to be different from anything before so much as it needs to be a good, classic, usable option at a more modest price.

 

[bfilm]

Of course, Linhof and Alpa cameras with Linhof rollfilm backs are also still available new, but they are even more expensive than Leica! And you have to get the lenses with Copal or other mechanical shutter secondhand.

 

[Pioneer]

After having read the last couple of pages of comments it is pretty clear that you don't want this camera.

To avoid future disappointment I think perhaps you better hurry up and apply for work with Pentax as marketing experts before the next camera comes out.

 

[mshchem]

Film and processing costs are a huge factor today. If someone is working for a living the economy of half frame will be much appreciated!!

 

[BradS]

Everything I know about Japanese business culture could probably be printed on a postage stamp but with that limited understanding, I suspect that the message Ricoh/Pentax are trying to make has little to do with the skills of the current engineering staff. When they say, "...our current staff couldn't understand so, we invited some retired/older engineers in to collaborate with our current staff", etc... I suspect they are trying to make a statement regarding honoring the past, honoring the wise men who came before us, approaching this with humility, not being so arrogant as to start from scratch, etc...

Honor and a connection to the past ... It may be as simple as that.

 

[xkaes]

another new film camera doesn't have to be different from anything before so much as it needs to be a good, classic, usable option at a more modest price.

Good luck with that. There are a ton of great half-frames on EBAY at unbelievable prices. Who needs a new classic when you can get an old classic for less? We will find out next week.

 

[bfilm]

Good luck with that. There are a ton of great half-frames on EBAY at unbelievable prices. Who needs a new classic when you can get an old classic for less? We will find out next week.

The biggest attraction of a new film camera is that it is new condition. And as Pentax has suggested, with the additional advantage of warranty, parts, and servicing.

And despite the greater economy on film and processing costs, I think half-frame is not a good choice for the return to film cameras by Pentax.

At the same time, I expect this will be a successful camera for Pentax. But I think many people will be buying it solely to support a new film camera and not because it is the camera they really want.

As I have mentioned, hopefully Pentax will continue their return to film cameras with more traditional camera models.

 

[Pioneer]

Everything I know about Japanese business culture could probably be printed on a postage stamp but with that limited understanding, I suspect that the message Ricoh/Pentax are trying to make has little to do with the skills of the current engineering staff. When they say, "...our current staff couldn't understand so, we invited some retired/older engineers in to collaborate with our current staff", etc... I suspect they are trying to make a statement regarding honoring the past, honoring the wise men who came before us, approaching this with humility, not being so arrogant as to start from scratch, etc...

Honor and a connection to the past ... It may be simple as that.

An excellent interpretation Brad.

 

[bfilm]

Everything I know about Japanese business culture could probably be printed on a postage stamp but with that limited understanding, I suspect that the message Ricoh/Pentax are trying to make has little to do with the skills of the current engineering staff. When they say, "...our current staff couldn't understand so, we invited some retired/older engineers in to collaborate with our current staff", etc... I suspect they are trying to make a statement regarding honoring the past, honoring the wise men who came before us, approaching this with humility, not being so arrogant as to start from scratch, etc...

Honor and a connection to the past ... It may be simple as that.

I think it is possibly a mix of real inexperience on the part of the current engineers (hopefully being improved!) and respect for the elders.

I did find it a bit funny how anxious they seemed to show their lack of understanding of the mechanics, but at the same time the detail with which the stories are told lead me to believe that they are true anecdotes.

I think they have made some real missteps with this first model (association with smartphones, half-frame format, etc.), but also some good choices like creating the hand-wound mechanism (after learning how to understand it from the elders!). My hope is that they will continue to improve in their design choices and engineering.

 

[BradS]

I think it is possibly a mix of real inexperience on the part of the current engineers (hopefully being improved!) and respect for the elders.

I did find it a bit funny how anxious they seemed to show their lack of understanding of the mechanics, but at the same time the detail with which the stories are told lead me to believe that they are true anecdotes.

I think they have made some real missteps with this first model (association with smartphones, half-frame format, etc.), but also some good choices like creating the hand-wound mechanism (after learning how to understand it from the elders!). My hope is that they will continue to improve in their design choices and engineering.

I think it quite likely that the videos are carefully scripted, large budget productions of the marketing organization and that the "engineers" in the videos are actors.

edit: it's all about messaging and managing expectations.

 

[bfilm]

I think it quite likely that the videos are carefully scripted, large budget productions of the marketing organization and that the "engineers" in the videos are actors.

edit: it's all about messaging and managing expectations.

I don't know. I think a lot of it is genuine. I think the only real spokesman has been Takeo Suzuki (TKO), and as far as I know he is a designer but not an engineer. So he has been recounting stories about the engineers.

I think Takeo is one of the instrumental people in instigating the new film camera project. He clearly has an endearing passion for it, but I just question a lot of the decisions they have made thus far.

From what I have seen thus far, I think the potential success will be mostly because they will be the only new option besides the expensive Leica cameras. But I still hold out hope that it will evolve into some pretty cool cameras.

 

[mshchem]

I think it quite likely that the videos are carefully scripted, large budget productions of the marketing organization and that the "engineers" in the videos are actors.

edit: it's all about messaging and managing expectations.

I don't think that this is happening. At all.

 

[brbo]

People thinking engineers of today really can't design a manual film transport and at the same time complaining Pentax didn't surpass complexity and quality of a 203FE with their first film camera three decades after film market collapse...

Bipolarity?

 

[xkaes]

From what I have seen thus far, I think the potential success will be mostly because they will be the only new option besides the expensive Leica cameras.

If you only look at one end of the spectrum -- but B&H lists dozens of NEW 35mm cameras, including the LOMO LC-Wide (at $500!!!!). I know, I know, those are not REAL cameras, 'ems TOYS, but.........

 

[bfilm]

People thinking engineers of today really can't design a manual film transport

Well, this is just going by what Pentax have told us. Although they did eventually figure out how to do it.

and at the same time complaining Pentax didn't surpass complexity and quality of a 203FE with their first film camera three decades after film market collapse...

Besides the essential mechanics of any film camera, I think complexity is the opposite of what many people want in a new film camera. Although for Pentax, who have made the essential components of SLR cameras continuously for 72 years, complexity shouldn't be too much of a difficulty. And Pentax have by choice introduced some complexity into the new camera because they want some automated features so that new users don't have to learn the basic concepts of photography before using the camera.

 

[bfilm]

If you only look at one end of the spectrum -- but B&H lists dozens of NEW 35mm cameras, including the LOMO LC-Wide (at $500!!!!). I know, I know, those are not REAL cameras, 'ems TOYS, but.........

Yes, I should perhaps clarify that I have been referring to cameras by the long-established major manufacturers or traditional camera makers.

 

[brbo]

And how is half frame camera not a "traditional", "classic" camera? They've been around for like forever. Certainly WAY before "it's just mimicking a smartphone" argument could be dreamt of.

 

[bfilm]

And how is half frame camera not a "traditional", "classic" camera? They've been around for like forever. Certainly WAY before "it's just mimicking a smartphone" argument could be dreamt of.

I suppose one could make that argument. But there have been all kinds of formats in the past.

I think it is fairly evident that the formats that are classic insofar as the iconic cameras and the most popular formats over the history of photography are 24x36mm "35mm" format and the various ratios on 120 "medium format" film.

And of course, the sheet film formats, but that is not the subject here.

 

[images39]

My interest was piqued when I first heard that Pentax was developing a new film camera. That interest evaporated when I saw the words "half frame."

But I hope that the camera is successful, and that it helps maintain interest and demand for film.

Dale

 

[brbo]

So the argument is that people want to do something totally different than everybody else (phone photography) and then going with the most common and boring of all film formats?

That's... so RAD!

 

[xkaes]

And how is half frame camera not a "traditional", "classic" camera? They've been around for like forever. Certainly WAY before "it's just mimicking a smartphone" argument could be dreamt of.

The Leica is often referred to as the first 35mm still camera, but that's only HALF right. The first 35mm still cameras were half-frames -- just like the movie frame that 35mm film was made for, back in the 1880s. And there were lots of them before Leica's full-frame 35mm camera -- often-called "double-frame", when it first appeared.

The early half-frame cameras had a horizontal format -- just like the movie cameras.

FYI, the "35mm" film which Kodak produced was 1 3/8" wide.

 

[bfilm]

So the argument is that people want to do something totally different than everybody else (phone photography) and then going with the most common and boring of all film formats?

That's... so RAD!

Exactly. Traditional film photography is totally different from digital imaging and especially from smartphones.

The traditional film formats that have the great cameras are the most appealing. Many of the best cameras are expensive, even old secondhand models. It would be nice to have some moderate cost (and high quality) options available new.

 

[xkaes]

Yes, I should perhaps clarify that I have been referring to cameras by the long-established major manufacturers or traditional camera makers.

Lomo was founded in Petrograd (later Leningrad, and now St. Petersburg) in 1914. I think that qualifies.

 

[MattKing]

I expect the need for consultation with retired engineers relates to understanding of how the manufacturing challenges were solved in the past.
If plans were initially designed with those legacy manufacturing techniques and tools and equipment and skilled technicians in mind, then there may very well be a need to have the retired engineers explain those contextual assumptions to the newer engineers.
I expect that there may have been a lot of "why did they do this this way?" conversations.
The older plans may also have referenced sub-assemblies that were then available from third parties, but are no longer made.
Sort of like modern automotive engineers having to have carburetors and manual chokes explained for them .