PC-TEA vs MYTOL for HP5+/Tri-X in 135/120 format

[MichaelMadio]

I'm almost out of chemicals so I'm taking the opportunity to re-tool my darkroom and have decided to go with home brew solutions. I've got fixer, stop, and print developer down but am stuck on the film developer. I'm seriously looking at either PC-TEA or MYTOL but can't really decide wich one to go with. I shoot 135 and 120 format predominantly with HP5+ or Tri-X developed in D-76 or XTOL at EI's all over the place as required. Enlargements are on Ilford Multigrade RC using a dichro head and VC filtering if necessary, generally at 8x10 and sometimes up to 16x20. Subject matter is varied.

I've been scouring the archives for a while and haven't found anything conclusive. From what I read, MYTOL is a functional equivalent to XTOL and should provide similar, if not identical results. I also stumbled across PC-TEA which sounds interesting, particularly from a simplicity and shelf life perspective. However, from what I read, PC-TEA does not perform as well as XTOL. Is my understanding of PC-TEA and MYTOL correct and can anyone provide any input as to which way I should go?

Your input is greatly appreciated. I'm not a darkroom expert but can get by so please be gentle.

 

[juan]

Your question really gets into individual preferences - I don't think there is a definitive answer. Some people like MYTOL and others like PC-TEA. I've used PC-TEA and find it works well - for me.

You just need to make a choice, mix up one or the other, and use if for awhile - like a year or so. At that time you'll know if it meets your requirements, and if not, you'll have an idea of what to look for. There are so many formulas you can spend all your time looking for the perfect one and never get any actual photography done.
juan

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

I like Instant Mytol. (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[fhovie]

PC TEA and Mytol are very similar - the Mytol has some grain softening to it and will make images appear smoother. PC TEA will give very crisp edges and a little more grain.

 

[aldevo]

I used PC-TEA, as well, and I'm very happy with the results.

A couple things to consider:
a) PC-TEA has very long shelf life due to its utilization of TEA as the solvent for the stock solution
b) It has very few chemical constituents (Phenidone, Ascorbic Acide, TEA) and is simpler to mix
c) Fewer chemicals means less likelihood that one of them has gone bad on the shelf (though any new batch should be used on a test roll first)
d) You can add Sodium Sulfite to PC-TEA for a finer-grained effect and some have done so
e) Do keep in mind that mixing instructions call for TEA to be heated to 250-300 degrees Farenheit. That can do a lot of damage if it comes in contact with skin (TEA's very viscous and cannot be rinsed off easily...it's a lot like getting splashed with fry-o-lator grease).

For me - it's PC-TEA. But I do take great care in its preparation for my own personal safety.

 

[aldevo]

I used PC-TEA, as well, and I'm very happy with the results.

A couple things to consider:
a) PC-TEA has very long shelf life due to its utilization of TEA as the solvent for the stock solution
b) It has very few chemical constituents (Phenidone, Ascorbic Acide, TEA) and is simpler to mix
c) Fewer chemicals means less likelihood that one of them has gone bad on the shelf (though any new batch should be used on a test roll first)
d) You can add Sodium Sulfite to PC-TEA for a finer-grained effect and some have done so
e) Do keep in mind that mixing instructions call for TEA to be heated to 250-300 degrees Farenheit. That can do a lot of damage if it comes in contact with skin. TEA's very viscous and cannot be rinsed off easily...it's a lot like getting splashed with fry-o-lator grease.

I had fry-o-lator grease splashed on a finger back in 1987. It was agonizing and the affected area (fortunately small) remains scarred and discolored to this day. Do be careful.

For me - it's PC-TEA. But I do take great care in its preparation for my own personal safety.

 

[dynachrome]

PC-TEA Mixing

The TEA in PC-TEA doesn't have to be heated to 300 or even 200 degrees F. I put the TEA into a stainless steel measuring cup and then place the cup into a shallow aluminum pan. I then carefully pour boiling water into the pan without splashing any into the TEA. In a few minutes the TEA is warm enough for adding and mixing first the ascorbic acid and then the phenidone. Some phenidone crystals will show up but these wil dissolve shortly on standing after the mixture has been poured into a bottle. This is a lot safer than putting the TEA into a microwave.

 

[aldevo]

Dynachrome,

Sounds promising. At what temperature do you find the Phenidone will dissolve in the TEA?

 

[joshverd]

What is TEA?

 

[tony lockerbie]

What is TEA?

Yes exactly, I'm having a cup now (prince of Wales) and never thought of putting my Tri-X in it..... and dangerous....eek!

 

[Zathras]

What is TEA?

TriEthanolAmine

Mike Sullivan

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Dynachrome,

Sounds promising. At what temperature do you find the Phenidone will dissolve in the TEA?

Phenidone dissolves readily in warm (100 to 120 degree F) Triethanolamine.

Phenidone also dissolves readily in room temperature (70 to 80F) Propylene Glycol.

I keep a stock solution of Phenidone/Propylene Glycol in my darkroom (10 grams of Phenidone dissolved in sufficient Propylene Glycol to make a total solution volume of 100ml). This Phenidone/Propylene Glycol stock solution mixes readily with triethanolamine and has a long shelf life (years).

 

[Reinhold]

PC-TEA is now my standard film developer, but for some reason I struggled with random streaking and/or fogging untill I started adding a touch of Bromide. The bromide was a booger to dissolve into the TEA, untill I found a reference that said Potassium Bromide is soluble in Glycerin.

A-Hah!! I galloped down to my local cake decoraing emporium and bought a small bottle of food grade glycerin, disolved 1.0 g of bromide in 5~10 ml of hot glycerin and added it to 500 ml of stock PC-TEA.

TEA (Triethanolamine) (@90°C.) ........ 500 ml
Ascorbic Acid ( as L-ascorbic acid) ....... 45.0 g
(not sodium ascorbate)
Potassium Bromide (Disolve in 5ml hot Glycerin) ........ 1.0 g
Phenidone (add last, at ± 80°C) ........ 1.25 g

Use at 1+50 dilution (20ml into 480ml water).

No more streaking, no more fog. Young film, old film. Roll film, 4x5, 5x7, 8x20 film, it makes no difference... Crisp, gorgeous negatives, every one.

Reinhold

www.classicbwphoto.com

 

[juan]

Anyone know if the KBr will dissolve in glycol? If so, it might be easiest to dissolve the KBr and Phenidone in warm glycol, then add the warm TEA as a way to keep temperatures within the warm range.
juan

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Yes, KBr will dissolve in warm glycol and it dissolves readily in 90%-99% isopropyl alcohol.

With film developing formulas that incorporate ascorbic acid or ascorbate, I usually leave the KBr out and I don't see any noticeable difference in the end results.

Ascorbic Acid Paper developing formulas often require KBr to achieve the desired tone.

 

[pauldc]

I keep a stock solution of Phenidone/Propylene Glycol in my darkroom (10 grams of Phenidone dissolved in sufficient Propylene Glycol to make a total solution volume of 100ml). This Phenidone/Propylene Glycol stock solution mixes readily with triethanolamine and has a long shelf life (years).

Could you also use this stock solution with other non-TEA based developers Tom?

(I currently use a phenidone/isopropyl alcohol stock for mixing developers such as Pyrocat and various FX-Crawley ones but I do not find the life of this stock is that long - 6 months at best. It would be good to replace it with a glycol stock)

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Could you also use this stock solution with other non-TEA based developers Tom?

(I currently use a phenidone/isopropyl alcohol stock for mixing developers such as Pyrocat and various FX-Crawley ones but I do not find the life of this stock is that long - 6 months at best. It would be good to replace it with a glycol stock)

Yes indeed, Paul! Propylene Glycol is chemically inert and mixes readily with water.

 

[Jordan]

Hi guys -- Sorry I'm a little late to the party. I use both MYTOL and PC-TEA. They're both good developers. Although the grain in PC-TEA does not appear as fine as what you can get from MYTOL, it's actually surprisingly good for a sulfite-free developer, which is one of Pat Gainer's key "discoveries". (I mean "discoveries" in a good way!)

Tom referred to "Instant MYTOL" in a post above. "Instant MYTOL" came about because I liked MYTOL but wasn't keen on having to keep all of its ingredients around all the time. "Instant MYTOL" uses phenidone, ascorbic acid, and triethanolamine -- the same chemicals as PC-TEA -- along with sodium sulfite.

http://www.photosensitive.ca/wiki/index.php/Main/EasyFilmDevelopers

 

[MichaelMadio]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their responses. Very useful.

 

[hka]

Making a stock solution for the Instant Mytol developer I discoverd that the powders not realy dissolved.
I'am mixing now for a hour or so but there is still on amount of powder on the bottom. I did it like the way it is described in the recipe thread with TEA and P-Glycol. The fluid is now a little yellowish.
What can I do to dissolve the powders in this liquid?

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Making a stock solution for the Instant Mytol developer I discoverd that the powders not realy dissolved.
I'am mixing now for a hour or so but there is still on amount of powder on the bottom. I did it like the way it is described in the recipe thread with TEA and P-Glycol. The fluid is now a little yellowish.
What can I do to dissolve the powders in this liquid?

Two possible solutions: Heat it up and/or wait. Both work incredibly well as long as the powder and the liquid carrier are compatible for dissolving.

 

[pnance]

To those who notices mixes with alcohols didn't keep as long as TEA. There is no 100% alcohol. It always has water in it, and water seems to be the problem with most liquid stock solutions lifetimes.

 

[hka]

Two possible solutions: Heat it up and/or wait. Both work incredibly well as long as the powder and the liquid carrier are compatible for dissolving.

Thank Paul,
How far can I go with the heating?
The TEA-P-Glycol mixture is now about 45°C (113 F).

 

[hka]

Update:
I stirred about more than 5 hours and on different temperatures but the only change in the status of the mixture is the color. It's now brownish like cola but a great amount of the powder is not dissolved yet. I think it's the Ascorbic Acid that causes the problems here. What can going wrong when making this mixture.
I started with 26.8 ml hot TEA @ 40-45°C
added then 50ml hot P-glycol @ 40-45°C
23 g of ascorbic acid (CAS:134-03-2) stirred a while, the powder was not totally dissolved before I
added the 0,3 g phenidone (CAS:92-43-3)
added some hot P-glycol to fill up to 100ml
and stirred some hours.

What can I do to presume this problem?
Any help is welcome.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Update:
I stirred about more than 5 hours and on different temperatures but the only change in the status of the mixture is the color. It's now brownish like cola but a great amount of the powder is not dissolved yet. I think it's the Ascorbic Acid that causes the problems here. What can going wrong when making this mixture.
I started with 26.8 ml hot TEA @ 40-45°C
added then 50ml hot P-glycol @ 40-45°C
23 g of ascorbic acid (CAS:134-03-2) stirred a while, the powder was not totally dissolved before I
added the 0,3 g phenidone (CAS:92-43-3)
added some hot P-glycol to fill up to 100ml
and stirred some hours.

What can I do to presume this problem?
Any help is welcome.

Harry, in my experience, AA (by itself) dissolves readily in TEA at TEA temperatures between 27°C and 49°C. Sodium sulfite could slow dissolution.

Gotta go - more later.