Overhauling Kodak Panoram

B&Jdude · Oct 26, 2008

mhcfires said:
At the rate things are going, I'll have to wait til after the first of the year before I can afford to go after a Panoram. There is one available on ebay right now for $300, it is supposedly in good condition. I dunno.

The Panorams have been appearing on FleaBay quite freuently of late, and it appears to be a pretty good buyers market. What is especially nice about that is that many of the ones being offered are the No. 1 Panorams, which can use readily available 120 film.

Of the 5 that were on there the last time I checked, 3 of them were the No. 1 types! One guy wanted $250 for his, but with the way prices seem to be dropping as more & more come on the market, he my be lucky to get $150, but one never knows as the collectors might jump in and that could put a prop under the prices.

Anyhoo, keep an eye on the sales, and you might pick up one at a very nice price.

EuGene

Frank R · Oct 26, 2008

I went to the camera show today and ended up buying a Panoram Number 4 Model D. It looked real nice but it had "issues". I fiddled with it for about an hour but I did not get it to work correctly. Looks like I will be tearing into this one after I get the Number 1 fixed. Another winter project.

B&Jdude · Oct 26, 2008

Frank, did you get the early Model D or the later one with the ratchet gears on the bottom of the swing lens shaft?

My 1D has those gears and I would like to hear ideas on working on them from anyone who has any experience with them. I have thought about getting a ratchet geared 4D for practice, as they are bigger and easier to work on (my current "practice" Panoram is a 4C) than a No. 1.

EuGene

Frank R · Oct 26, 2008

B&Jdude said:
Frank, did you get the early Model D or the later one with the ratchet gears on the bottom of the swing lens shaft?
EuGene

Just the plain old Model D, no ratchet gears.

I had to put the camera down after fiddling with it awhile. I am in my last term in grad school and I have to get back to my studies; I will be able to devote more time to these activities after Christmas.

Thanks for the booklet, that was very nice of you!

B&Jdude · Oct 26, 2008

Frank: Happy to be of help with that booklet.

Here's a bit of info on the Panorams that is nice to know stuff.

The Panorams, in the order they were first introduced:

No. 4 (142 degree swing)

1899 - 1900 Original model (no letter), no door on the front, Rapid rectilinear lens
1900 - 1903 Model B, added lens door and brilliant finder, switched to meniscus lens
1903 - 1907 Model C, some later ones had 2 levels for horizontal & vertical operation
1907 - 1917 Model D, 1st version, no level in 1907, single level after that
1917 - 1924 Model D, 2nd version, ratchet/gear speed control

No. 1 (112 degree swing)

1900 - 1901 Original model (no letter), it had a lens door, rapid rectilinear lens
1901 - 1903 Model B, switched to meniscus lens
1903 - 1907 Model C, some with 2 levels
1907 - 1917 Model D, 1st version
1917 - 1924 Model D, 2nd version, ratchet/gear speed control

No. 3A (120 degree swing)

1926 - 1928 only one model, 2 speed selector separate from cocking lever, 2 shutter releases, "T" level

Some of the Panorams were special ordered with a Goerz early Dagor lens.

As I get more information on differences/changes between the various models I will pass it along.

EuGene

B&Jdude · Oct 26, 2008

By the way, the front door, winder, and some other parts were held in place by nickel plated brass screws with the slotted oval head (lower profile than the more common round head type), size #0 x 5/16.

MicroFasteners doesn't have them - if you find a source let us know.

The bulls-eye level on page 2240 of the McMaster-Carr on-line catalogue is the exact same size and style on the top, but the bottom part that fits into the hole in the camera is about 2mm deeper than the original. The hole would have to be VERY CAREFULLY bored a bit deeper to allow the level to seat flush with the camera body. Once in place, the only way to tell them apart is that the original was nickel plated whereas the new ones are chrome, and the original background below the bubble was red and the new ones have a white background. EuGene

freygr · Oct 31, 2008

Oval head wood screws are basically a flat head screw which has a rounded head, see link: http://www.mcmaster.com/ and look at catalog page 2970. So you can safely sub plain old flat head screws. But unluckily 1/16 length steps in screw are no longer available, so we are stuck with 1/4 inch or 3/8 inch lengths, or if you can find 8 mm long metric wood screws and hope the thread diameter is the same as size 0?

B&Jdude · Nov 1, 2008

Well, freygr, I might well be wrong here, but I think the shaft diameter of a #0 wood screw is 0.060" (approx. 1.52mm) and the nearest Metric equivalent might be a M1.6. That is, if I understand correctly, that the number after the M is the shaft diameter in mm.

Maybe I should send one of these Panoram screws over to my friend in Zurich and have him check local hobby shops to see what they might have in screws that could substitute.

EuGene

B&Jdude · Nov 8, 2008

Aha, success! My Swiss frien clued me into a German company that is on FleaBay as schraubendepot (roughly translated as "screw store"). Among the screws that they sell are brass oval head miniature wood screws, and one size will work for us, the M1.6x8. The measurements for this screw are 1.6 mm in diameter and 8 mm in length . . . almost exactly the same as our #0x5/16, which in metric measures to 1.5 mm in diameter by 7.9 mm in length. Plenty close enough.

Since Kodak used nickel plates screws, I will have to dig out my little Plug n' Plate kit and plate at least the head of the brass screws. You can Google the Plug n' Plate kit to find them, or do a search on FleaBay, as they are sold there. They work nicely, too, as I have plated a number of clarinet keys (often made of nickel plated brass) with my kit.

Anyone have good info on procedure to open the usually dried-up bubble levels and refill them? Ed Romney touched on it in his antique camera repair manual, but didn't describe the procedure. Don't wan to break one by not doing that repair correctly.

EuGene

jon koss · Dec 3, 2008

I see #4 Panorams selling for over $100. I had assumed they are shelf queens only, but at that price I wonder if users are competing for them? If so, what are they using for film?

Thanks,
Jon

B&Jdude · Dec 4, 2008

Jon, I think your supposition about #4 Panorams being shelf queens is probably quite correct. Specialty house film to fit them is very costly, and using them as single shot cameras with sheet film or making "roll your own" out of aerial film are both a big pain in the butt. So, I suspect folks, like me, who want to take pictures will settle for the #1 Panoram (even though it has only a 112 degree swing rather than the 142 degrees of the #4)

On the other hand, in order to take advantage of the greater swing of the #4, some folks have made 2 1/4 masks plus some insert plugs to center the 120 film roll to line up with the mask in order to easily use the #4 to take 2 1/4 x 10 1/2 negatives for a 4 to 1 + panoramic ratio.

By the way folks, those German 1.6 x 8 mm oval head brass screws are really nice, and that 0.1mm extra thread diameter compared to our old #0 x 5/16 screws actually helps them to fit a bit tighter in the old worn screw holes.

This thread has been quiet of late, so I'm glad to see you join the discussion, Jon.

I took my two #1 original models out for some test shots with both B&W and color film, shooting a roll of each type in each camera . . . it is at the lab now. More when I get the prints back.

EuGene

Frank R · Dec 4, 2008

The #4 Becomes a Shelf Queen

I was tightening the loose arm on the bottom of the timing shaft when the screw gave way. It turns out that the black shaft is nothing more than soft brass; I overtightened and stripped the thread. I would have to re-machine a new shaft to replace it. What a shame, this was one pretty #4. It is now available for parts if anyone wants it. Send me an email.

The other thing I learned is why the shutter is faster going in one direction than the other. It is because the arm on the bottom of the timing shaft (that presses down the spring inside) is not centered square between the springs in the neutral position; it is off to one side. As a result, when you set the shutter to one side it will press down more than if you set it to the other side.

BTW: Centering the shaft and tightening the screw on the bottom does not work!

CRhymer · Dec 4, 2008

PM and email sent.

Cheers,
Clarence

B&Jdude · Dec 5, 2008

Man, that's a bummer, Frank. I have had similar occurances when I was working on a camera . . . just about get the repairs all done, then have something break as I am putting everything back together.

EuGene

B&Jdude · Dec 29, 2008

I have been having a problem with flare coming from the film edges and really messing up my negatives when I use Iso 100 or 200 film. I have checked the various corners, joints, and doors for light leaks and it appears to be coming from the rear (backing paper side) rather than the front (emulsion side), hence the "leaking" onto the film from the edges. I suppose when these cameras were made, they were using 25 or 50 speed film and it wasn't such a problem.

One thing that might help is to replace the faded orange-ish film window with a darker red one, as the window is doubtless a significant light source. I might put a foam and/or black velvet "donut" around the window on the inside of the camera, making it thick enough to brush against the film just enough to keep the interior of the camera from filling up with light.

I would like to hear from others who have had this flare problem and how they have dealt with it.

By the way, I have some No. 2 Brownie box cameras that have the same problem, again with light getting onto the film from the edges, suggesting that the light is leaking from the rear of the camera, with the red/orange window being the usual suspect.

EuGene

jamie young · Dec 29, 2008

Much of the film at the time was orthochromatic, and pretty slow as well. I've always plugged the window unless I'm in need of looking through it. Graflex used a spring door on their bag mags that let you look through the window to check the number but kept the window covered otherwise. How is the shooting going?
Jamie

B&Jdude · Dec 29, 2008

Well, Jamie, I shot a couple rolls through my two original Panorams and both had terrible flare comming in from the sides of the negative and bleeding toward the center. On some of the prints as much as 1/3 of the print was completely washed out.

That's why I thought a foam or velvet "donut" around the window on the inside of the back would keep the light from scattering around the inside of the camera. I don't think it would be a problem if any light entering through the window was kept solely on the film backing paper by the "donut". I'm going to try it on one of my No. 2 Brownies (which also has a light leak at the red window) to see if that donut will cure the problem.

EuGene

mhcfires · Dec 30, 2008

B&Jdude said:
Well, Jamie, I shot a couple rolls through my two original Panorams and both had terrible flare comming in from the sides of the negative and bleeding toward the center. On some of the prints as much as 1/3 of the print was completely washed out.

That's why I thought a foam or velvet "donut" around the window on the inside of the back would keep the light from scattering around the inside of the camera. I don't think it would be a problem if any light entering through the window was kept solely on the film backing paper by the "donut". I'm going to try it on one of my No. 2 Brownies (which also has a light leak at the red window) to see if that donut will cure the problem.

EuGene

I found that using a small piece of black gaffer's tape to cover the window has helped with the flare on my Brownie Target Six-20. I also have a Kodak #3A Folding Brownie, and covering the red window with tape has helped there, too.

B&Jdude · Dec 31, 2008

Yeah, Michael, I think I'll just go with the gaffer's tape. I tried the foam "donut" gambit, and it just gripped the paper backing . . . the result was that the foam rolled up like a carpet roll and was stuck off in the back corner beside the red window. I don't figure it will work with the Panorams either, so I will forget that idea.

EuGene

DaveBurns · Jan 28, 2009

info on the Kodak Panoram 3A

Hello, all. I don't mean to hijack this thread but I just found this after having posted in Equipment > Panoramic Cameras and Accessories ((there was a url link here which no longer exists)). I have just received two Kodak Panoram 3A's and am looking for advice on assessing their value and finding someone who might be interested in them.

To save you effort, I'll paste in some relevant details from that thread:

- The first 3A is in excellent condition, the case is light-tight, the "bellows" (not quite the right term for this camera design but whatever) is also light-tight, the shutter mechanism works fine at both speeds. The film rollers and uptake are all in working order. The only defect as far as I can see is that a piece of the viewfinder has broken off. That piece is with the camera and someone skilled could reattach it I guess.

- The second 3A is disassembled. The pieces could be used to assemble a complete working model or used as repair parts for the first. The case and "bellows" are still light-tight as far as I can tell. In addition, there is an extra, i.e. 3rd, lens assembly that must have been part of another 3A at some point.

- Each 3A has its own case and both are in good, working, but not excellent, condition. Main issue is that one or two of the folds in the leather are starting to split.

If anyone can recommend a site or forum where people who are into collecting these hang out, I'd appreciate it. I'd like to get some value out of them but I'd also like to know they're in a good home being put to good use. And of course, if it would help to post more details or a picture or two, please let me know.

Thanks,
Dave

B&Jdude · Jan 30, 2009

Dave:

The only hangout that I know of for panoramic photographers is the International Association of Panoramic Photographers ( Dead Link Removed ). I don't know how many Panoram folks are on there, as most on there seem to chat about Circuts and more modern panoramic cameras. However, Bill McBride (arguably the foremost expert on Kodak Panorams) is a member, so maybe you can connect with him and he can steer you to others.

I know of where you can get a 3A instruction book . . . e-mail me at bigusmith@yahoo.com if interested and I will let you know about that.

The 3A Panorams have lately been bringing about the same price as No. 1's on that infamous auction site, usually around $300 of so if in working condition and not too worn in appearance . . . prices do tend to swing widely, so anywhere from $150 to $450 is possible in this crazy market. Having the original cases is a plus, as one doesn't see them very often. You might clean them up, and if you know how to properly treat old leather with saddle soap. neatsfoot oil, mink oil, etc that would help, especially to soften the leather where it is cracking at the folds.

Good luck with them.

EuGene

mhcfires · Jan 31, 2009

Speaking of that infamous auction site, there are currently three Panorams available right now. #1, 4D and 1D. The 4D looks nice, supposedly in "great shape", at a buy it now price which is way over my head. The seller will include 30 feet of aerial film to use in it. .

almost forgot the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Kodak-Panoram-4D-Swing-Lens-panoramic-panorama-camera_W0QQitemZ320336563329QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item320336563329&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A1|39%3A1|240%3A1318

B&Jdude · Feb 1, 2009

Hey, something screwy with that "1D" . . . the 1D had the drop down back flap and swing out sides, not the 2-piece body of the earlier models. Since the curved wood section on the front half of the camera has only the name and not a model type (B or C), I would say that camera is an original type 1. It is possible that the camera has a replacement front lens door that came off a model D parts camera, and that's where the seller got the idea it is a model D.

Don't know what the interest is in #4 Panorams, as they use old obsolete film that is a very expensive special order item (about $35 to $40 per roll), else it's a PITB what with having to cut down aero film and roll it up or cut LF sheet filmtape to the curved film plane, and use the camera as a single shot camera. In spite of the hassles a #4 will usually bring about the same money as a #1 . . . for the most part destined to become collectors' shelf queens, I suppose.

mhcfires · Feb 2, 2009

I wondered about the "1D" because it looked to me like a #1. You are probably right about a new door as a replacement. As for the 4D, I would probably use it if I were to get it. I like the challenge of using old stuff like that. I would love a 3A, The film is still somewhat available, I have about eight rolls of 122 film, Verichrome Pan. I am using it in my postcard camera. It is a PITA to put on a reel for development, but I did manage to adapt a Unicolor reel to take the 92mm wide film. When I run out of film I'll look for some aerial film to slit and rewind onto 122 spools. I still have the backing paper. Very careful with that stuff.

B&Jdude · Feb 2, 2009

Michael:

I guess I'm too lazy to cut and roll my own film and too much of a miser to buy those obsolete types, so I guess I'll just stick with my three #1 Panorams that use 120 film.

I have two #4C Panorams that I use as repair and maintenance training aids. The best one, when I get it all fixed up real nice, will be sent back as a gift to the guy I bought it from. I haven't decided what I will do with the other, but have been leaning toward donating it to our local historical society museum.

By the way, just as an indicator of the crazy camera market during these troubled economic times, the last two #1 Panorams, both in similar condition, sold for about $350 for the first and then $83 for the second one week later. I bought a real nice #1D (with the gear/ratchet timing mechanism) for $49 BIN price. There is no way to predict camera prices in today's crazy market. I have recently bought two mint Super Ikontas, one for $280 and one for $65. ???? :confused:

Smiff

Overhauling Kodak Panoram

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