Orwo planning return to colour production

[cmacd123]

You are welcome, Tom.
Harman technology / Ilford Photo and Foma are currently / at the moment the two European companies being able to do roll film confectioning in Europe.
But ADOX is working on re-establishing its roll film confectioning line at their headquarter factory in Bad Saarow. Their intention is to offer an even improved quality compared to their former 120 offering.
And Film Ferrania is working on their own 120 converting line, too.

I thought that Foma was able to roll and package 120 and 135 film also. (Mostly as private label it seems) The Czech Republic is considered part of Europe is it not?

 

[cmacd123]

The years for the Orwo-made films are all wrong.
The years for the CNG are seemingly wrong. The years for the CNN are wrong as the marketing/converting firm not even existed that long period. The years for the CNS make sense..

while "Old" ferrania was still running, they may have been able/happy to deliver "ready to ship" 35mm cassettes with (actually any name you wanted) the ORWO name. The edge printing shown above is not all that much different than that that Old Ferania used. They did put coloured marking between the perforations on their Private label stuff, BUT the folks using the ORWO Brand may have requested that the film NOT have those markings to distance the product from Ferrania.

the other one that is a bit supisious to me, the first rolls of New Ferrania P30 I got were in Konica Brand cassettes, (with a paper label covering the printing) and one of the ferrannia updates mentioned that the new crew found a large quantity of never used Konica colour cassettes. both of which inply that Ferrania was making Konica Brand film for DNP after the Konica film production went away.

 

[Henning Serger]

I thought that Foma was able to roll and package 120 and 135 film also. (Mostly as private label it seems) The Czech Republic is considered part of Europe is it not?

Charles, of course Foma is able to do full 135 and 120 film converting in their factory. I have written that. Please have a look at my posting.
They are doing it for their own products, and partly also for other companies.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

the other one that is a bit supisious to me, the first rolls of New Ferrania P30 I got were in Konica Brand cassettes, (with a paper label covering the printing) and one of the ferrannia updates mentioned that the new crew found a large quantity of never used Konica colour cassettes. both of which inply that Ferrania was making Konica Brand film for DNP after the Konica film production went away.

Ferrania had a big fully-automatic production machine for 135 film cassettes. They produced them not only for their own, but also for other companies. So other companies could (and did) order 135 cassettes from them.
When they stopped film production, they also stopped cassette production (a bit later to be precise). They sold that machinery to Harman technology / Ilford Photo. I have seen it in full operation there at my factory visit.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[cmacd123]

They sold that machinery to Harman technology / Ilford Photo. I have seen it in full operation there at my factory visit.

so that is where the Ilford in house cassettes come from. When they announced that they were going to make their own, after spending a half Million, I wondered how they could set up for that for that small amount of Money.

 

[AgX]

while "Old" ferrania was still running, they may have been able/happy to deliver "ready to ship" 35mm cassettes with (actually any name you wanted) the ORWO name.

Orwo AG stated back then they would do conversions themselves.

In any case they could not have bought Ferrania films before they even were erected.

 

[cmacd123]

Charles, of course Foma is able to do full 135 and 120 film converting in their factory. I have written that. Please have a look at my posting.
They are doing it for their own products, and partly also for other companies.

Best regards,
Henning

Me Bad, I did not see that you did mention Foma in your post. I probably need to adjust my glasses..

 

[twelvetone12]

Ferrania had a big fully-automatic production machine for 135 film cassettes. They produced them not only for their own, but also for other companies. So other companies could (and did) order 135 cassettes from them.
When they stopped film production, they also stopped cassette production (a bit later to be precise). They sold that machinery to Harman technology / Ilford Photo. I have seen it in full operation there at my factory visit.

Best regards,
Henning

Wait - wasn't that the ex-Agfa finishing machine? I remember somebody telling the joke that Harman staff learned more German re-assembling the machine that in school... Or they are two different machines (cassette producing and finishing)?

 

[AgX]

No, that seemingly was all Orwo stuff. As partially showed off again later at Filmotec. And why should Agfa have sold in the mid-90's a converting machine when type 135 production was still rising?

 

[Arcadia4]

Ilfords packaging machinery is ex agfa leverkusen bought post bankruptcy.

 

[AgX]

Yes, but I thought we were talking about Orwo here and their successors and their ability to convert films actually made by others.
I do not even see a reference by Charles to Ilford, only to Foma.

 

[Arcadia4]

Was responding to twelvetone. Perhaps we have gone off-thread, that would be a first for this forum

 

[Henning Serger]

Me Bad, I did not see that you did mention Foma in your post. I probably need to adjust my glasses..

No problem, Charles. All good .

Best regards,
Henning

 

[foc]

Hello Félim,

the list cannot be correct for at least NC100, as in the second half of the 90ies there defintely has not been any color film production anymore in Wolfen. It stopped in 1992/93.
And therefore the timeline for QRS 100 can also only refer to the time span the last produced stock was sold to the wholesalers.

And - much more important - back to the original topic: Possible new colour films:
1. There is no "ORWO film factory" anymore in the sense that the former huge ORWO plants in Wolfen are somewhat continuing in business. The successor of the "VEB Fotochemisches Kombinat Wolfen", the "Filmfabrik Wolfen GmbH", was liquidated in 1994.
After that there have been several 'spin-offs' from former employees, founding new companies with new names. But re-starting production for the silver-halide photo industry, including film base (TAC), raw chemistry, photo chemistry likes developers, fixer etc., photo lab services and also BW film.
The spin-off for BW film production was the company called FilmoTec: http://www.filmotec.de/
FilmoTec has the right to use the ORWO brand name for their film products.
And there is another spin-off company who has the right to use the ORWO brand name, too: ORWONet: https://www.orwonet.de
That is a very big mass volume photo lab and photofinishing company for both film and digital photography (we have even five of such big photofinishing companies in Germany, ORWONet being one of them).

2. FilmoTec is a specialist for certain BW film products. They are not able to produce colour film.
As meanwhile there is a very close cooperation between FilmoTec and InovisCoat, there is a chance that colour films - produced by InovisCoat - are sold under the ORWO brand name.
I have visited the InovisCoat facility some time ago. Have seen all the production machinery of Inovisproject (see below) and talked to the engineers. At that time they have been already working on standard (non-experimental) color films. But since then unfortunately there have been some severe setbacks.

We have to be cautious and very realistic concerning such new colour films from Germany, because
1) As mentioned the project has faced some severe setbacks. And design and production of colour films is extremely complex and difficult. It is "rocket-science".
2) We have to be realistic about our expectations: InovisCoat is neither able to create and produce colour films of the extremely high quality standard of Fujifilm and Kodak (no Provia / Velvia / Pro 400H / Portra etc. quality level).
3) They are also not able to produce a high-quality colour film like Fujifilm C200 at such an extremely low price.
So what we can expect at best case - if the project is successful in the mid-term (which there is no guarantee for it) - is a medium to good quality colour film at reasonable prices (mid-range price level), which offers a different colour rendition to the current offerings of Fujifilm and Kodak.

Some background info about InovisCoat:
They are a kind of "spin-off" from the former Agfa factory in Leverkusen, Germany. The founders were former Agfa engineers / chemists. And after the closure of that factory these former employees bought most of the "K14" emulsion making and coating machinery of the former Agfa plant. The K14 was the film coating machine, the L6 the paper coating machine.
They scaled the K14 down in mainly two ways, with one remaining coating head and the width shortened to about 1.08 meters (but believe me, it remains a huge, three level high machine nonetheless).
When founding the new company their business model was to offer coating technology to other areas than silver-halide photography, like pharmacy. But that didn't work as expected, with the result of an insolvency, restructuring and new start: The whole new factory was sold (in 2011) and restarted as Inovisproject, being a daughter company of Polaroid. Main business of it is producing the colour and BW film base for all the Polaroid films, as that important step cannot be done (and has never be done) in the Polaroid factory in Enschede, Netherlands (I visited the Polaroid factory in Enschede, too, some time ago).
Production of these negative film bases for Polaroid films is by far the main production of this factory for many years, as the demand for these films is increasing since their restart as Impossible Project. This production of Inovisproject is going on on an almost daily basis.
Since the split-of InovisCoat and Inovisproject - which are legally completely different companies, but located under the same roof at the factory in Monheim - InovisCoat has detailed contracts with rights to run their own productions on the machinery owned by Inovisproject. And with the production staff of Inovisproject.
So InovisCoat is more a kind of intellectual property and know-how company, but not a production company in the original/traditional sense (anymore).

Neither InovisCoat, Inovisproject nor FilmoTec have the capability / machinery for confectioning (converting / finishing) of 135 and 120 format film. They do need a partner company for that. At my visit they told me that they already have that partner company.

Best regards,
Henning

Hi Henning, good to hear from you.
Thank you for your correction, I made a typo in the NC100 date which I have now corrected, 1998-89.
I think I too, need to wear my reading glasses more often.
As always, your input and knowledge are gratefully appreciated.

 

[Henning Serger]

Wait - wasn't that the ex-Agfa finishing machine? I remember somebody telling the joke that Harman staff learned more German re-assembling the machine that in school... Or they are two different machines (cassette producing and finishing)?

Yes, two different machines: One is producing the metal cassettes only (finished, closed / clamped cassettes), and the other much much bigger one is much more than 'one' machine: It is a line of several combined machines which make successively all the needed steps from a 35mm film pancake at the beginning of the line to final packaged 10-film packs in transparent foil at the end (you see it partly in the Ilford factory tour video on Ilford's youtube channel). The output of this machine-line is about one film per second (!).
This machine line was indeed bought from Agfa (from their confectioning plant in Windhagen) after Agfa closed their factories in Leverkusen and Windhagen.

Yes, the joke was made by Simon Galley on our factory tour: "Before we bought that machine our engineers did not speak one single word in German. After re-assembling it and building it up again in our factory they are speaking fluently German...." . And he told it in this unique, wonderful dry British humour way....we had a really good laugh. But not only one time, because Simon cracked such jokes permanently . He is really missed, such an excellent guy. And the Ilford factory tour was absolutely great.
There is the following story behind the joke about the converting line: When the line was disassembled in Windhagen the electric cables were just cut, and not marked at the cut-location in any way! Several thousands of cables were cut!! To find all the right connections again was a hugh challenge. The Ilford engineers need about one year to bring the line back into operation. These guys are technical wizards, I have the greatest respect for them.

Just one technical side note: There are generally two different methods of 35mm film converting: One with closed cassettes, in which the film tongue is then put through the slot and hooked in the spool.
And one with an open cassette where the film is spooled on the spool first, and then the cassettes is closed and clamped around the film spool.
The first method was and is used by Agfa, Fujifilm, Ilford, Ferrania, Foma, ADOX, Tura and some others. The big adavantage is better quality, as you have no real problems with dust.
The second one with open cassettes is used by Kodak.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Hi Henning, good to hear from you.
Thank you for your correction, I made a typo in the NC100 date which I have now corrected, 1998-89.
I think I too, need to wear my reading glasses more often.
As always, your input and knowledge are gratefully appreciated.

Hello Félim,
you are welcome.
And thank you very much for your appreciation!

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Arcadia4]

One is producing the metal cassettes only

One question on the cassette making plant, does it rely on preformed plastic components and metal strip or does it include injection moulding the plastic parts? Was suggested ilford had bought a separate moulding plant as well for these to bring everything inhouse ?

 

[AgX]

They need injection moulding for type 120 spools already. With such projects it depends what is more economic.

Forming a casing from metal strips and inserting a velvet seal is something special. Preprinting metal sheets, injection moulding reels type 120 and 135 and cannisters is not. The less special a job is, the more economic it gets sourcing it out.

To western economic thinking... GDR manufacturers had good reasons to keep things in-house.

 

[Henning Serger]

One question on the cassette making plant, does it rely on preformed plastic components and metal strip or does it include injection moulding the plastic parts? Was suggested ilford had bought a separate moulding plant as well for these to bring everything inhouse ?

If I remember correctly, the machine was feeded with finished plastic spools. Whether they were made inhouse, or supplied by specialist manufacturer, I don't know. We haven't talked about it. And we were there at the cassette producing machine for a relatively short time span. At that time Ilford did a production run for an other company.
Injecting moulding is a relatively widespread technology with lots of specialist manufacturers. So at least getting such parts is in principle much easier than producing the metal cassettes, which is more complicated in comparison.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[twelvetone12]

Thanks Henning for your great explanation!
It is interesting how much Ferrania was working with other manufacturers and what parts of it went to others after closure. There are some very nice interviews of ex Ferrania management on youtube and it appears they were producing x-ray film for Kodak and packaging it for them. Then the x-ray division was sold to Kodak and relocated IIRC (I remember the story that employees were not happy to move) and that started the decline of Ferrania in the early 2000s, as x-rays was the most profitable source of income. The last years are quite a sad story and a slow decline, when the factory closed the workers blocked the local highway in protest! But to no avail.

 

[Henning Serger]

Thanks Henning for your great explanation!

You are welcome.

It is interesting how much Ferrania was working with other manufacturers and what parts of it went to others after closure. There are some very nice interviews of ex Ferrania management on youtube and it appears they were producing x-ray film for Kodak and packaging it for them. Then the x-ray division was sold to Kodak and relocated IIRC (I remember the story that employees were not happy to move) and that started the decline of Ferrania in the early 2000s, as x-rays was the most profitable source of income. The last years are quite a sad story and a slow decline, when the factory closed the workers blocked the local highway in protest! But to no avail.

Honestly, that Ferrania (and the other color film producers AgfaPhoto, Konica, Lucky) had to stop film production was most probably inevitable. The market contraction was just too big. If we look at standard photo film (135,120, sheet film) - and exclude instant film - the market volume had shrunk by about 98,5 - 99% from its all-time-high in 2000 - 2002 to its all-time-low in 2014 - 2016.
By the way, the global all-time-high volume - including instant film - was about 3.5 billion (!) units (sources: R.L. Shanebrook: Making Kodak Film, p. 267; PMA and GFK data).
It isn't surprising at all that with Fujifilm and Kodak the two strongest companies (and market leaders) in color film survived. The two companies which offered
- technologically the best films
- the widest film programme
- and had the most efficient film production.
But even for them it has been an extremely hard fight. The former Eastman Kodak CEO some years ago has been very honest and admitted that in 2014 Kodak thought about stopping film production entirely. The deal with the Hollywood studios saved the business at that time. And since then also the general film revival fortunately changed the situation entirely.

When I visited Film Ferrania I had a detailed and very interesting talk with their former manager for global sales. As you all know, Ferrania had been a major player in production film for other brands for a very long time. Often these contracts for other house-brand films were based on an initial 'auction': So several film manufacturers make an offer / bid, and the potential custumers who wants the film then chose the bid with the lowest price.
In the last auction in which Ferrania participated - at a time when the global film maket was still in the 800 mio. to 1 billion range in the second half of the 00ies - a film manufacturer won this auction with the offer of a fully packed CN film 135-36 for 45 Cents. Yes, only ridiculously low 45 Cent!! Today you will have problems to get just the 135 film cassettes for such a low price.
At that moment it was finally clear for Ferrania that they have no chance anymore in such a market, and then they pulled the plug.
In that context:
In late summer of 2019 I had a long and very interesting talk to a former employee of the Agfa Germany (Leverkusen) film R&D department. He worked there just short before they stopped production. He told me that at that time Agfa made only 1 Cent net profit per 1m² color film. 1 tiny Cent! 1m² is about 17 135-36 films.
Go figure......

Best regards,
Henning

 

[markjwyatt]

Orwo's groovy, baby!

 

[AgX]

This commercial is from the period when with big effort it was tried to establish the new brand ORWO, after having given up on Agfa.

 

[Agulliver]

THank you Henning, for your informative posts.

Regarding InovisCoat/InovisProject. I understand they actually make/coat the "Metropolis" C41 colour film for Lomography. I've shot one 110 cartridge of this, and of course it is a deliberately strange colour saturation...but it did get me thinking that the overall properties such as grain and the fact that the colours aren't a million miles from "normal" would mean that the manufacturer of Metropolis could produce a reasonable C41 colour film if they put their efforts into it. Not up to the quality of that produced by Kodak and Fuji, but good quality nonetheless.

 

[Lachlan Young]

THank you Henning, for your informative posts.

Regarding InovisCoat/InovisProject. I understand they actually make/coat the "Metropolis" C41 colour film for Lomography. I've shot one 110 cartridge of this, and of course it is a deliberately strange colour saturation...but it did get me thinking that the overall properties such as grain and the fact that the colours aren't a million miles from "normal" would mean that the manufacturer of Metropolis could produce a reasonable C41 colour film if they put their efforts into it. Not up to the quality of that produced by Kodak and Fuji, but good quality nonetheless.

From what Ron Mowery commented about Metropolis, it seems like a regular C-41 film without the interlayer scavengers etc - which would make sense in terms of InovisCoat gradually building up to making a new colour neg film.