Orwo planning return to colour production

[K25]

Orwo offered the full range of products, in contrast to quite some other manufacturers.
Post 1990 Orwo released 5 own, new colour films. 3 of these on C-41 and E-6 standard.

Orwo closed May 20th 1994.

All state-owned GDR manufacturers (and that was the whole industry) had their legal status changed in 1990 from state-owned into private, but that not necessarily had effect on production.
And for many who were not immediately bought up that "private" status had not much effect as the state ownership was just exchanged into shares owned by state-held trustee (Treuhand).

Here we are at the other part of te story. What does "need" and capacity mean? The USSR and the GDR handled different concepts of consumer supply during their existence. The relative effluence of the GDR consumer to a great extent was founded on the USSR for political reason subsidizing the GDR economy. Thus in a sense the USSR consumer paid for that.

In UK we had Orwo colour film products in the 70's as C-41, it was bit tricky to get hold but nonetheless stock wasn't from East Germany. The Orwo colour films never changed to C-41 system until the very end of GDR.

 

[AgX]

From that you in the UK in 70's had been sold Orwo branded colour film that not was made by Orwo you cannot conclude that Orwo imported colour films from other East-European states, let alone that Orwo did not make colour films at all.


To my understanding Orwo did not even have a sales office in the UK, at least in West-Germany they had not. All was handled by an importer.

 

[AgX]

Orwo manufactured mainly B&W surveillance stock. East Germany did import from USSR, CZ and YU film stock.

In 1980 Orwo offered 360 different products in 1600 conversions.

 

[brbo]

In 1980 Orwo offered 360 different products in 1600 conversions.

The tolerances were that huge that every sheet they cut was considered a separate format?

(as a former citizen of a socialist state I feel like I can afford this joke)

 

[foc]

The tolerances were that huge that every sheet they cut was considered a separate format?

(as a former citizen of a socialist state I feel like I can afford this joke)

 

[foc]

I am still very interested in the Orwo produced C41 films.
I have searched the web but can find very little info, just the Orwo QRS.
From what I have read in this thread, Orwo had C41 film under development in the 1980's but didn't produce it while the GDR/DDR existed. It was afterwards that Orwo produced C41 appeared.
Yet it is so hard to find any info about their early C41 products.
Did they produce all the C41 films themselves, up to and including QRS or were some toll manufactured?
I would love to see neg strips of their C41 films, to see the edge markings.

 

[AgX]

They manufactered several C-41 films themselves, but they also offered 3 C-41 and 1 E-6 just branded as Orwo.

Keep in mind that after the closing of the filmplant, a new entity for about 2 years also converted and offered films just branded Orwo. However the range of films offered by this enterprise never got published as far as I know.

 

[Anaxagore]

I must still have some rolls of Orwo CNS, CNN and QRS in some dark corner at my place.. I had results that were good enough with the CNS and CNN but not with the QRS (probably too expired when I used it..), all of these being C-41. I’ll try and find them and see if they indicate a place of manufacture.

 

[AgX]

Orwocolor QRS was made by Orwo. That is in the Orwo plant.

Orwo CNS and Orwo CNN were just marketed (maybe even converted) by a successor entity called Orwo, after the actual film plant as such had been closed and before Filmotec was established.
These two are thus rebranded films.

 

[foc]

I must still have some rolls of Orwo CNS, CNN and QRS in some dark corner at my place.. I had results that were good enough with the CNS and CNN but not with the QRS (probably too expired when I used it..), all of these being C-41. I’ll try and find them and see if they indicate a place of manufacture.

Thanks, that would be great and much appreciated.
If you had a photo of neg strips for each (showing the edge marhings) would be fantastic.
I hope I am not asking too much.

 

[AgX]

Looking at edge markings without knowledge of the ORWO history will not tell much.

 

[railwayman3]

I have to hand an Orwocolor QRS100 24 exp. 35mm. box, expiry 3/96? (printing not clear), which states:

"Filmfabrik Wolfen Gmbh, D-06761 Wolfen. Made in Germany"

"Process; ORWO 5861/C-41"

I used quite a few of these films about 20+ years ago for general holiday-type pictures(they were being sold off very cheaply in the UK at the time). The negs are in store at the moment, but I remember that the quality of the results was excellent, quite comparable with Kodak, etc., consumer films.

 

[foc]

Looking at edge markings without knowledge of the ORWO history will not tell much.

Just try and humor me

 

[Anaxagore]

Thanks, that would be great and much appreciated.
If you had a photo of neg strips for each (showing the edge marhings) would be fantastic.
I hope I am not asking too much.

just a few iPhone pictures of what I have found (I certainly have more, in particular some CNS, but not at that location.. or maybe I shot them all): side and back of QRS 100 box, unexposed roll of CNN 100, one frame in a processed CNN 100.

 

[AgX]

As I said, foc.
The telling hint is not the edge signing but the name of the manufacturer.

 

[foc]

just a few iPhone pictures of what I have found (I certainly have more, in particular some CNS, but not at that location.. or maybe I shot them all): side and back of QRS 100 box, unexposed roll of CNN 100, one frame in a processed CNN 100. View attachment 264816 View attachment 264817 View attachment 264818 View attachment 264819

Thank you for posting the photos, it was just what I wanted.

 

[Anaxagore]

Thank you for posting the photos, it was just what I wanted.

You are very welcome. This fora are made for helping each other to the best of our abilities. Mines being very limited, it makes me happy when I can help.

 

[foc]

You are very welcome. This fora are made for helping each other to the best of our abilities. Mines being very limited, it makes me happy when I can help.

Any other details or info you may have about Orwo colour film, print or transparency film, would be much appreciated.

 

[foc]

I eventually was able to find some info on Orwo C41 films.

Orwo C41 Film	Time line	Manufacturer
NC100	1988-89	Orwo
PR100	1990	Orwo
QRS100	1992-94	Orwo
CNG 100-200-400	1992-94	Ferrania
CNN100-200-400	1994-98	Ferrania
CNS 100-200-400	1997-98	Konica

Any corrections (along with the source) gratefully accepted.

(sources: http://industrieplus.net/dxdatabase/index.php Tabelle_Hausmarkenfilm_200316.pdf )

 

[Henning Serger]

Hello Félim,

the list cannot be correct for at least NC100, as in the second half of the 90ies there defintely has not been any color film production anymore in Wolfen. It stopped in 1992/93.
And therefore the timeline for QRS 100 can also only refer to the time span the last produced stock was sold to the wholesalers.

And - much more important - back to the original topic: Possible new colour films:
1. There is no "ORWO film factory" anymore in the sense that the former huge ORWO plants in Wolfen are somewhat continuing in business. The successor of the "VEB Fotochemisches Kombinat Wolfen", the "Filmfabrik Wolfen GmbH", was liquidated in 1994.
After that there have been several 'spin-offs' from former employees, founding new companies with new names. But re-starting production for the silver-halide photo industry, including film base (TAC), raw chemistry, photo chemistry likes developers, fixer etc., photo lab services and also BW film.
The spin-off for BW film production was the company called FilmoTec: http://www.filmotec.de/
FilmoTec has the right to use the ORWO brand name for their film products.
And there is another spin-off company who has the right to use the ORWO brand name, too: ORWONet: https://www.orwonet.de
That is a very big mass volume photo lab and photofinishing company for both film and digital photography (we have even five of such big photofinishing companies in Germany, ORWONet being one of them).

2. FilmoTec is a specialist for certain BW film products. They are not able to produce colour film.
As meanwhile there is a very close cooperation between FilmoTec and InovisCoat, there is a chance that colour films - produced by InovisCoat - are sold under the ORWO brand name.
I have visited the InovisCoat facility some time ago. Have seen all the production machinery of Inovisproject (see below) and talked to the engineers. At that time they have been already working on standard (non-experimental) color films. But since then unfortunately there have been some severe setbacks.

We have to be cautious and very realistic concerning such new colour films from Germany, because
1) As mentioned the project has faced some severe setbacks. And design and production of colour films is extremely complex and difficult. It is "rocket-science".
2) We have to be realistic about our expectations: InovisCoat is neither able to create and produce colour films of the extremely high quality standard of Fujifilm and Kodak (no Provia / Velvia / Pro 400H / Portra etc. quality level).
3) They are also not able to produce a high-quality colour film like Fujifilm C200 at such an extremely low price.
So what we can expect at best case - if the project is successful in the mid-term (which there is no guarantee for it) - is a medium to good quality colour film at reasonable prices (mid-range price level), which offers a different colour rendition to the current offerings of Fujifilm and Kodak.

Some background info about InovisCoat:
They are a kind of "spin-off" from the former Agfa factory in Leverkusen, Germany. The founders were former Agfa engineers / chemists. And after the closure of that factory these former employees bought most of the "K14" emulsion making and coating machinery of the former Agfa plant. The K14 was the film coating machine, the L6 the paper coating machine.
They scaled the K14 down in mainly two ways, with one remaining coating head and the width shortened to about 1.08 meters (but believe me, it remains a huge, three level high machine nonetheless).
When founding the new company their business model was to offer coating technology to other areas than silver-halide photography, like pharmacy. But that didn't work as expected, with the result of an insolvency, restructuring and new start: The whole new factory was sold (in 2011) and restarted as Inovisproject, being a daughter company of Polaroid. Main business of it is producing the colour and BW film base for all the Polaroid films, as that important step cannot be done (and has never be done) in the Polaroid factory in Enschede, Netherlands (I visited the Polaroid factory in Enschede, too, some time ago).
Production of these negative film bases for Polaroid films is by far the main production of this factory for many years, as the demand for these films is increasing since their restart as Impossible Project. This production of Inovisproject is going on on an almost daily basis.
Since the split-of InovisCoat and Inovisproject - which are legally completely different companies, but located under the same roof at the factory in Monheim - InovisCoat has detailed contracts with rights to run their own productions on the machinery owned by Inovisproject. And with the production staff of Inovisproject.
So InovisCoat is more a kind of intellectual property and know-how company, but not a production company in the original/traditional sense (anymore).

Neither InovisCoat, Inovisproject nor FilmoTec have the capability / machinery for confectioning (converting / finishing) of 135 and 120 format film. They do need a partner company for that. At my visit they told me that they already have that partner company.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Neither InovisCoat, Inovisproject nor FilmoTec have the capability / machinery for confectioning (converting / finishing) of 135 and 120 format film. They do need a partner company for that. At my visit they told me that they already have that partner company.

Very informative Henning. Thanks for your insights. Do we take this to mean that Harman Technology and Foma are the only companies able to confection roll film in Europe?

 

[Henning Serger]

Very informative Henning. Thanks for your insights. Do we take this to mean that Harman Technology and Foma are the only companies able to confection roll film in Europe?

You are welcome, Tom.
Harman technology / Ilford Photo and Foma are currently / at the moment the two European companies being able to do roll film confectioning in Europe.
But ADOX is working on re-establishing its roll film confectioning line at their headquarter factory in Bad Saarow. Their intention is to offer an even improved quality compared to their former 120 offering.
And Film Ferrania is working on their own 120 converting line, too.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Tom Kershaw]

And Film Ferrania is working on their own 120 converting line, too.

I must admit I've not really followed the progress of the Film Ferrania project but this is encouraging news.

 

[AgX]

I eventually was able to find some info on Orwo C41 films.

Orwo C41 Film	Time line	Manufacturer
NC100	1988-99	Orwo
PR100	1990	Orwo
QRS100	1992-94	Orwo
CNG 100-200-400	1992-94	Ferrania
CNN100-200-400	1994-98	Ferrania
CNS 100-200-400	1997-98	Konica

Any corrections (along with the source) gratefully accepted.

(sources: http://industrieplus.net/dxdatabase/index.php Tabelle_Hausmarkenfilm_200316.pdf )

The years for the Orwo-made films are all wrong.
The years for the CNG are seemingly wrong. The years for the CNN are wrong as the marketing/converting firm not even existed that long period. The years for the CNS make sense.

Reason is that the original source is faulty and contradictory in itself. Furthermore it would have made no sense to offer CNN and CNS in parallel.

 

[Henning Serger]

The years for the CNN are wrong as the marketing/converting firm not even existed that long period.

That is not completely correct as after the Liquidation of the "Filmfabrik Wolfen GmbH" in 1994 Heinrich Mandermann bought the remaining business and continued (without own film production at Wolfen) selling films under the ORWO brand name under his new company "ORWO AG". But that successor company was not successful as well and got in insolvency in 1997.
How long the films continued to be sold after that is probably impossible to clarify precisely in 2021, as some distributors may have had some remaining stock longer than others, but it is at least not unlikely that it has been until 1998 / 1999.
Nevertheless it is not really important at all, and we should not get "grey hairs" because of it . The ORWO films of the 90ies - no matter whether the first, which were still produced in Wolfen, nor the later, which were repackaged ones from other manufacturers - only played a negligible role in the market. In lots of markets they were even never offered. And in those they were offered, their market share was tiny and minimal.

And for the original topic - first post here - that history has no relevance at all. Because if the R&D efforts at InovisCoat are successful, these films will have nothing in common with the former ORWO colour films.
Nothing but - probably - the brand name.

Best regards,
Henning