On the care of 35mm film: freezing/thawing...

[Paul Verizzo]

Your film manufacturer keep up with ISO standards. Even when you don't care about it, certain scientific laws still applies to your film.
The storage conditions for before/after expiry date are evaluated by some competent folks somewhere, somehow, no?

Not necessarily. There's plenty of subjectivity, politics, opinions, and traditions in setting of standards and law. Not saying there isn't objectivity for the most part. I'm glad my film and many other things in my life are made to high standards, ISO or whatever it was fifty years ago, too.

Remember, they want to sell film. They want to make statements so conservative they will never ruffle anyone's feathers or suffer any kind of a loss. I have a lot of "expired" film. In fact, maybe all of mine is! Guess what? Even the color film still is working fine.

"Argument from authority" is one of the classic methods of debate. And one of the weakest, especially against evidence. On the one side of this debate is Authority, which is human, do not forget. On the other side is Paul, who has defied said Authority for thirty years doing what shouldn't be done without the slightest bit of problem that he's seen.

The earth is flat, heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones................it's a long list.

 

[MattKing]

The earth is flat, heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones................it's a long list.

Don't forget to add "35mm film cans are sealed against moisture"

 

[wblynch]

In my experience, even when frozen, Fuji color films suffer from color shifts 3 years past expiration date - or sooner.

I have had Pro 400H shift badly at only 1 month past expiration date (room temp. stored)

I have used 6 year expired Kodak Portra (that was kept frozen) and it came out looking like brand new.

I am nervous since I have 20 rolls of Elitechrome from 2011 that has been frozen since new. I am trusting and hoping that when I use it it's going to work perfectly.

 

[wblynch]

Oops, sorry, I forgot this is the Black and White forum.

I have thirty year old Black and White film that still works great (maybe lost a stop, if that...)

 

[georg16nik]

Don't forget to add "35mm film cans are sealed against moisture"

indeed
wouldn't been nice if ALL film manufacturers sealed their 35mm film cartridges with... unbreakable seal against moisture

....I have a lot of "expired" film. In fact, maybe all of mine is! Guess what? Even the color film still is working fine....

Ektar 25, still got some ?
Still fine ?

I guess you are the only person who've never had any issues...
Folks at ISO/TC 42 will be amazed...

 

[Xmas]

Don't forget to add "35mm film cans are sealed against moisture"

One chum on removing the cassette cap looked at the leader and dropped the cassette into street waste bin. And pocketed the tub.
It was rainbow colours...
Another person on the forum was watching... So not BS.
I know the chum only has a fridge...

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Don't forget to add "35mm film cans are sealed against moisture"

Matt, mine seem to be! I keep a couple of pH buffer solutions for calibrating for meter calibrating in plastic film "cans." Never the slightest leak nor evaporation.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

indeed
wouldn't been nice if ALL film manufacturers sealed their 35mm film cartridges with... unbreakable seal against moisture



Ektar 25, still got some ?
Still fine ?

I guess you are the only person who've never had any issues...
Folks at ISO/TC 42 will be amazed...

I doubt I'm that fortunate, that unique.

I'm sure the captains back at Columbus's port thought his stories impossible, like the Europeans did of Marco Polo.

 

[Xmas]

Matt, mine seem to be! I keep a couple of pH buffer solutions for calibrating for meter calibrating in plastic film "cans." Never the slightest leak nor evaporation.

How would you have detected ingress of water?
I have rusty cassettes...

 

[Paul Verizzo]

How would you have detected ingress of water?
I have rusty cassettes...

??? Not sure I follow your question. The polyethylene "cans" that 35mm film has come in for 40? years.

 

[MattKing]

??? Not sure I follow your question. The polyethylene "cans" that 35mm film has come in for 40? years.

Those polyethylene "cans" do not fully block the ingress of moisture. Depending on the humidity you work with, and things like whether your freezer is an "automatic defrost" type, you can end up with a fair amount of humidity inside the cans and, in a worst case scenario, rusty cassettes.

The foil pouches that 120 film is packed in do block moisture.

 

[cmacd123]

The foil pouches that 120 film is packed in do block moisture.

I beg to differ on that, I got some 40 year old 620 Ilford FP4 from an e-bay seller, and the foil was intact, but one flange of the spool was a bit rusty, and there was some extra fog on that edge of the actual film. There was also some flakes missing where the emulsion had stuck to the paper. I don't belive that film was frozen, the seller said it had been stored in a basement in France since new.

Gota Hand it to Ilford BTW, seemed to have retained most of it's original speed, judging by the exposures in a Bakelite Brownie hawk eye.

 

[Pioneer]

I certainly hope film does not have to be frozen. I have thousands of rolls of TMY400 120 that have been happily stored in my darkroom for years between 50F and 70F (depending on the season). So far it seems to work great. Once I begin to notice fogging there are developing solutions for that as well if I need to use them.

 

[Xmas]

??? Not sure I follow your question. The polyethylene "cans" that 35mm film has come in for 40? years.

Confirmed the plastic tub things.
Ilford say theirs are not hermetic.
I've had several casettes not Ilford that had rusty metal after opening intact card packing and opening tub.
Steel needs moisture to rust.
Absence of a syndrome in an experiment does not prove that a syndrome is not possible try Russian roulette.

I could send photo if I knew how the iPhone and apug worked.

 

[Xmas]

HiDan
70F is pushing luck if you plan on decades.
I've had

100 ISO ok after 2 decades
400 ISO just detectable fog ditto

Not bothering with restrainer for the rest of 1000 feet, both Microphen and Rodinal ok.


Noel

 

[georg16nik]

I certainly hope film does not have to be frozen. I have thousands of rolls of TMY400 120 that have been happily stored in my darkroom for years between 50F and 70F (depending on the season). So far it seems to work great. Once I begin to notice fogging there are developing solutions for that as well if I need to use them.

Freezing is not a stop-all firewall.
Fogging is more related to extraneous radiation or harmful gases. In most darkrooms hydrogen sulphide, sulphur dioxide are not uncommon.
Depending on the where film is stored, relative to the ventilation path - you might or might not notice fogging caused by chemistry in DR.
Time and time again it was proven that sensitive photographic materials are best stored away from darkroom, chemistry fumes, high humidity, high temperatures etc.
Also, some stones / stone aggregates in concrete can emit sufficient radiation to fog 400 ISO films after long storage, say 5 to 10 years.

 

[removed account4]

I certainly hope film does not have to be frozen. I have thousands of rolls of TMY400 120 that have been happily stored in my darkroom for years between 50F and 70F (depending on the season). So far it seems to work great. Once I begin to notice fogging there are developing solutions for that as well if I need to use them.

i'm the same way ...
maybe 4000 sheets of 4x5 + 5x7 film
100s ( maybe 1000 ) of rolls of 135+120 ..
i haven't noticed the fogging
iso 25-3200 .. but my shelf isn't as warm as yours

 

[Alan Klein]

A slight variable. I keep my films Velvia and Tmax 100 (120 film sealed in the original) in the trunk of my car during the winter. The car sits in my garage that gets pretty cold too. So I suppose the temperature of the film goes up and down. Any statistics on this situation?

What about during the summer?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Freezing is not a stop-all firewall.
Fogging is more related to extraneous radiation or harmful gases. In most darkrooms hydrogen sulphide, sulphur dioxide are not uncommon.
Depending on the where film is stored, relative to the ventilation path - you might or might not notice fogging caused by chemistry in DR.
Time and time again it was proven that sensitive photographic materials are best stored away from darkroom, chemistry fumes, high humidity, high temperatures etc.
Also, some stones / stone aggregates in concrete can emit sufficient radiation to fog 400 ISO films after long storage, say 5 to 10 years.

Radiation is not avoidable. If Radon is in the house, it is in the house. However my refrigerator-freezer is not in the darkroom so I do not have to worry about chemistry fogging the film unless I am blasting out sulfur-dioxide with methane.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Those polyethylene "cans" do not fully block the ingress of moisture. Depending on the humidity you work with, and things like whether your freezer is an "automatic defrost" type, you can end up with a fair amount of humidity inside the cans and, in a worst case scenario, rusty cassettes.

The foil pouches that 120 film is packed in do block moisture.

How do you figure that, Matt? I have high respect for you, so I'm curious.

I've I've posted ad nauseum, polyethylene is gas permeable. However, the thickness of the "poly" cans is much, much greater than poly film. So it decreases by that amount, it's linear.

Also, at below freezing temperatures, what does the relative humidity become? In a freezer, that will wind up as "frost," unless it is a "frost free" one. In which case the humidity would eventually be zero, right? Unopened, of course.

I think we can do the angels on the head of a pin with lots of conjectures and "what if's". Bottom line, it works.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

A slight variable. I keep my films Velvia and Tmax 100 (120 film sealed in the original) in the trunk of my car during the winter. The car sits in my garage that gets pretty cold too. So I suppose the temperature of the film goes up and down. Any statistics on this situation?

What about during the summer?

I'd ask, "Why bother?" Especially if said car is sometimes sitting in the sun for a day. Why bring new variables in? Do you have a basement or other cool place? I'd go for that.

Or, if you have a wife, explain why y'all should be a freezer, you know, to save money on food sales, buying a quarter of beef, etc.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Confirmed the plastic tub things.
Ilford say theirs are not hermetic.
I've had several casettes not Ilford that had rusty metal after opening intact card packing and opening tub.
Steel needs moisture to rust.
Absence of a syndrome in an experiment does not prove that a syndrome is not possible try Russian roulette.

I could send photo if I knew how the iPhone and apug worked.

You know what "CYA," means, no? Ilford HAS to take the conservative position. And it's certainly better safe than sorry.

But this isn't an airplane with terrible consequences if a bad decision is made. I've yet to find rust on any metal part, ever. Now, historically I don't shoot lots of film compared to many here, but OTOH, I've not had one failure, in regards rust.

All of my film has been frozen since 2001 in both dry Denver and humid Florida. Sporadically, since about 1981.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Freezing is not a stop-all firewall.
Fogging is more related to extraneous radiation or harmful gases. In most darkrooms hydrogen sulphide, sulphur dioxide are not uncommon.
Depending on the where film is stored, relative to the ventilation path - you might or might not notice fogging caused by chemistry in DR.
Time and time again it was proven that sensitive photographic materials are best stored away from darkroom, chemistry fumes, high humidity, high temperatures etc.
Also, some stones / stone aggregates in concrete can emit sufficient radiation to fog 400 ISO films after long storage, say 5 to 10 years.

Good points.

But film sealed will not experience gas degradation.

After lots of research into both film in particular, and cosmic rays generally, I think the latter play an almost inconsequential role in film fogging. Exceptions MIGHT be living at high altitude and very fast films, none of which are available any more.

I mean, the fact is LOTS of film went through airport scanners without issue if it was only once or even twice. That's a bazillion (scientific term) times worse than natural cosmic rays. Granted, the latter are of much higher energy than X-rays, but it's getting there.

It takes a full centimeter or half inch of lead to decrease cosmic rays only 50%.

 

[removed account4]

hi paul verizzo

not trying to stir the pot ...

i started a thread a while back which is now locked and buried ... but you might find some of it interesting . ( or not )

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
( below is a direct link to post #60 + 79)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

a very well respected person who ran the lab for a national portrait chain
did experiments with his colleagues to discover how robust COLOR films were
because their local shops had to mail exposed rolls ( long rolls ) of film to the lab ( and fresh rolls mailed to the shops )
and they needed to make sure the film wasn't going to degrade from heat exposure.
his ( their ) findings were that some films are extremely robust and a bit of heat won't bother them ..
but i imagine long term heat exposure is something different, and their experiments were a controlled environment ...
(yes, i know your comments had to do with b/w ... maybe bw+color are similar in this respect? after all, from what i understand b/w is the base layer of all color films )
people chimed in throughout the thread with PERSONAL experiences whether or not they noticed
a difference in regular stored film ( not frozen, not refrigerated, &c )
and while some noticed differences using technical devices ( densitometry &c ) that was really beyond the scope of the thread
... many of the people who spoke of their personal experiences ... suggested it didn't make enough of a difference to change what they did ...

me? i don't really cold store much of anything, i can totally understand why people do, but for me, it really hasn't made much of a difference ...
i get clear film base if i need it ... and off the shelf seems to be "good enough " for me ...

as with everything YMMV ..

have fun !
john

 

[Paul Verizzo]

@jnanian: Yes, OMMV. One's Mileage May Vary. There are so many possible variables if one wants to start in with the "What if's.........." My point to the OP that stirred the hornet's nest is that MY experience over decades of freezing film, B&W and color, had no discernible downsides. No doubt brand/model, especially in color, MIGHT have some variable.

But for me, freezing works perfectly.