On Being A Professional Photogapher...Tell us your story, please...

[Pieter12]

I think most clients already do most of what they need to do with cell phones.

Really? Product photos, corporate portraits, and a slew of other types of photography that deal with lighting, directing and production. A cell phone can certainly be used for those, but it needs to be operated by someone with a modicum of photographic talent and skill.

 

[Robert Maxey]

Not Fair! How about extending the topic to professional printers and lab wonks? You know, the real power behind the images?

Many a story can be told about what happens in a dark room and a snoot full of "Bob's Pure Gin Rapid Intensifier." Sometimes, Gin and Tonic Reducer. It was my formula, or so i would tell trespassers that dare to breach my hallowed lab.

As for the photography end, yes i was. Every year,the Diamond Walnut Store Display. The FMC plant in Green River Wyoming, or a particular pumice processing plant and the inevitable Christmas photos taken to sell cameras. Generally, though, it was photos of routine stuff for routine customers like fronts of buildings and such. Admittedly, images most of you could make.

But there was once this time that ... No, statute of limitations might not have run out yet.

Bob

 

[Robert Maxey]

Really? Product photos, corporate portraits, and a slew of other types of photography that deal with lighting, directing and production. A cell phone can certainly be used for those, but it needs to be operated by someone with a modicum of photographic talent and skill.

I think Yousuf Karsh took many of his portraits with an iPhone 2.

 

[Robert Maxey]

Take this from an assistant in the mid-1970s who didn't know how to load Hasselblad magazines....

Silly you. Why didn't you hand the A12 to your assistant? Problem solved :>)

 

[removed account4]

Really

yea .. but probably a gross generalization seeing nothing is every 100%. ..

in 90% of the cases, from mugshots, to portraits, to real estate photos to web photos to sometimes by the seat of the pants architectural photos
businesses have realized that a cellphone photo these days is good enough. the bar has been lowered quite a bit where mediocre is the new OK ...
I worked for someone who did all the pr, executive portrait, glossy 5x7, promotion in the newspaper photos for basically the whole region, that was her bread and butter work. she was booked solid from 8am until 330pm Monday thru Friday .. that was in the 80s, if she were around today trying to do that sort of work, she'd be bankrupt since no one pays any money for that sort of photography. try to get a realtor to pay you for real estate photos, they do them themselves on their phone, or MLS does the same, or they use a drone if its "high end" million+ dollar estates ... I documented a building a few years ago, maybe 6? it was being done for the city and was the last remaining building from the original hospital campus being torn down for some sort of something to replace it ... the images needed to be pretty high end lots of pixies dancing on the head of a pin, look perfect, done in a certain way/format .. the guy who hired me wanted to do the submission from his cellphone photos .. so if he could have, he would have.
high end portraits, I guess hire a photographer, high end product work, hire a photographer, web ads that are high end, hire a video guy and cherry pick stills ( which has been the standard for years now ) ... there's some need for a photographer but these days its mostly memes and NFTs...

 

[Robert Maxey]

...there's some need for a photographer but these days its mostly memes and NFTs...

Cough, cough ... NFTs? Are you referring to Non Fungible Tokens?

Bob

 

[awty]

"

My photographs are, today, almost entirely graphic-artistic explorations. If I had more space and related resources I'd undoubtedly make photo-silkscreens.

You could rent a studio.
I think there is opportunities in niche markets, especially in teaching and supplying materials.

 

[removed account4]

Cough, cough ... NFTs? Are you referring to Non Fungible Tokens?

Bob

pretty much

 

[Robert Maxey]

pretty much

I'll have to have a look. I figured it was only a matter of time. The "easy money" seems to draw people to that world.

Bob

 

[KenS]

Ken, great story! Question: if you wanted to be a professional today, how would you go about it? Would you free-lance? Or you think there are photo opportunities like the ones you enjoyed for a younger version of you today?

"jtk'
At 'my age' I am no longer interested in ANY 'free-lance work" or 'working for a living'. That being 'said' There are still some 'occasional opportunities' in the 'medical/dental fields' even tho 'most of them' have 'changed over to digital capture. We sill have an organization for 'pros' working in that 'field It used to be the Biological Photographic Association (now known as BCA.org) who hold 'workshops' and 'chapter meetings/workshops' on the 'how best to.... I'm not sure how much is 'still done' with film since digital capture (and video) seems to have "taken off' and 'retired' image capture to film. I've just re-upped my membership thinking 'I might be of 'some use' in my limited years to come (I'll be 81 this year.. and have no longer any 'interest' in earning any income from recording anything 'medical/dental ' at this time of my life.
BUT I still enjoy getting 'OUT THERE whenever possible with my 4x5 Linhof monorail (and or my 'beloved 8x10 B&J 'woodie') and exposing 'real film and print from those negative susing the so-called 'archaic print processes (a lot less $$ expensive per print but.. more time (and 'FUN") to 'make.
I scan my original 'film negative (making 'required' minor changes size and/or contrast range) and print the resultant scan onto the 'slightly frosted side of Mitsibushi's "Pictorico' Over-Head Film for use as a negative for prints using the (so-called 'archaic print processes) under my home built UV light source (a lot 'slower' than commercial B/W papers but 'somehow' MUCH MORE FUN (and cheaper as well [that's my Scots blood 'taking over] I am NOT really a 'cheap
'bast**d' just somewhat 'careful' as to where my pension income gets spent. I now tend to be more than 'somewhat' careful to that which I 'record' to film.... ie I have MORE 'time BUT LESS TO 'invest/spend on to-day's B/W papers.

When I 'kick the bucket' they (whomever 'they' are) will have to 'yank' both my LF cameras out of my arms.
Should you be any-what interested there are occasional 'openings' in Biological/Medical imaging (video and 'film') though most likely more 'digital' recording than exposing to film (even tho digital images could/might be modified post capture
(just DO NOT GET 'CAUGHT" so doing) If you REALLY want to get 'onto that specialized 'field' search for the BCA.org
website for chapter nearest you an see if you can get honest information on how to (perhaps) attend a meeting to 'see if you may have the 'ability' to get into that 'specialized' field.

There were some instances where (even 'I ) had to 'search' for some advice on 'How best to...a 'whatever'. ANY and ALL members are really 'interested' in sharing their knowledge of the best 'HOW-TO) and why it is (usually) better.

We are ALL interested in sharing information on how best to. I sometimes wonder why there is less of that 'spirit'
HERE.

Ken

 

[removed account4]

I'll have to have a look. I figured it was only a matter of time. The "easy money" seems to draw people to that world.

Bob

they might be after ez money but they will eventually realize there is no such thing
just like there is no free lunch and "we'll do lunch" mean laters, and ...
been that way forever.. a lot of its who you know not what you can do.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Medical imagine is changing very, very fast. Soon it will all be 3-D scans, multispectral imaging, OCT, even for 'gross' specimens. I kept up with it for a while as I had a client in the industry. Now in my dotage I scan the literature but mostly let it slide by. https://www.photonics.com/BioPhotonics/p1

 

[jtk]

My impression is that digital has put a lot of extra heat on photographers who might have done OK back when there were good (ie same day) chrome labs but are today struggling to meet client demands with antique thinking.

Digital has opened many creative doors by enabling better client involvement/expectation.

Photography is far better today than in yesteryear..

 

[Robert Maxey]

Photography is far better today than in yesteryear..

I do not believe photography today is better than in times past. Before you can say that, you must qualify your thinking process. Specifically, why do you think photography is better today? It is certainly easier in many regards, I'll give you that. Easier does not necessarily mean better.

Today, photography is more prevalent, certainly. My opinion is if there was no digital cameras out there, there would be vastly less photography and certainly more film choices. For old folks like me, digital is somewhat responsible for doing in Kodak and other film manufacturers.

Because everyone has a phone or carries a camera; documenting their day to day in unending volumes of good to bad to awful images. I do remember when not so many people took photos because all they had was a film camera and did not want to pay for prints. Before that, lots of people had home darkrooms.

Then photography among the "amateurs" died down to some extent and our sales of equipment and services remained relatively level and consistent. Digital arrived and now, everyone is a photographer, creating tens of millions of photos and posting amateur video on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram and other places. No shortage of phone reviews that tell us how good the camera is.

What is better today is rapidity. From image to digital file to upload on the fly. That said, many times we would deliver a print half an hour or so after the photograph was taken. We had clients who needed images fast and we could handle these occasional rushes.

I'll just say it is easier today, not necessarily better.

Bob

 

[CMoore]

As jtk says, it's about clients.

When I was hustling, mid 70s, it seemed to me that wedding photographers only saw the bride and groom, plus maybe immediate family, as clients. For me, everybody at the wedding was a potential client, including the kids. 'You look so sweet in that dress, ask your mother if I can take some pictures of you'.

I worked on spec. Informal/candid shots outside the church. At the evening reception I'd collect as many names and addresses as I could by doing b+w walkie snaps. 'My numbers on your receipt. Give me a call in a week or two if want to see the wedding photos I took earlier today.'

There was some legwork involved in flogging the colour prints but hey, work is work. In just about every wedding I wangled myself an invite to, more people saw the pics I took than those taken by the pro.

Smart !

I had to ask.
Was this common.?
John51............looks like he has been gone for awhile. So i am asking you or anybody else.

Was he saying that he would hang out, on the outside of a Church where a random wedding was taking place.
Then......find out where the reception was, turn up there, and just start shooting and then pass out business cards, and hope people would contact him for prints.?
He did not know anybody at the Wedding/Reception. Nobody (Pro photographer if there was one) ever questioned what he was doing, or maybe told him to beat it.?

 

[foc]

I had to ask.
Was this common.?
John51............looks like he has been gone for awhile. So i am asking you or anybody else.

Was he saying that he would hang out, on the outside of a Church where a random wedding was taking place.
Then......find out where the reception was, turn up there, and just start shooting and then pass out business cards, and hope people would contact him for prints.?
He did not know anybody at the Wedding/Reception. Nobody (Pro photographer if there was one) ever questioned what he was doing, or maybe told him to beat it.?

I suppose it depends on the market/traditions and country where this sort of practice took place.
In Ireland, where I shot weddings professionally for 35 years, I never saw or heard of it happening.
(Some of the pros that I knew would have beaten the living daylights out of him if he showed up like that.)

I was dealing with traditional church weddings and as such, they ran to a certain routine. Guests didn't expect to be hustled or asked for private photographs. Some guests would ask, with the bride's permission, for an extra family photo to be taken, but it was the exception rather than the rule.

I knew one photographer that used to leave a business card on the tables at the reception, asking if guests wanted photos of the wedding, to get in touch. The brides were not happy with it. Some saw it as muscling in on their big day and others didn't like the idea that guests would see the wedding photos before the bride & groom.
The photographer then tried to postpone the guest viewing/buying photos till after the bride has seen the photos (usually 2-3 weeks later) but guest interest had cooled by that time.

 

[Pieter12]

Was he saying that he would hang out, on the outside of a Church where a random wedding was taking place.
Then......find out where the reception was, turn up there, and just start shooting and then pass out business cards, and hope people would contact him for prints.?
He did not know anybody at the Wedding/Reception. Nobody (Pro photographer if there was one) ever questioned what he was doing, or maybe told him to beat it.?

Sounds like stalking to me. And an easy way to get in trouble or hurt.

 

[removed account4]

I had to ask.
Was this common.?
John51............looks like he has been gone for awhile. So i am asking you or anybody else.

Was he saying that he would hang out, on the outside of a Church where a random wedding was taking place.
Then......find out where the reception was, turn up there, and just start shooting and then pass out business cards, and hope people would contact him for prints.?
He did not know anybody at the Wedding/Reception. Nobody (Pro photographer if there was one) ever questioned what he was doing, or maybe told him to beat it.?

2nd shooters traditionally hand out their cards when they are doing reception candid work and try to slit the main photographer's throat. has been done for ages..

 

[CMoore]

2nd shooters traditionally hand out their cards when they are doing reception candid work and try to slit the main photographer's throat. has been done for ages..

Good Grief....not a pro photographer. So i had no idea.

I was in The Painters Union. I had people (try to) throw cash at me ALL The Time to paint one thing or another. I got sick of it. I started to tell them One Million Dollars to paint a wall. Because when my boss finds out, i will never work in San Francisco again. So i will need at least a million for security.
Anyway..............that is pretty slimy for a hired hand to do that.

But the guy i was asking about was not a "Second Shooter".
He would just slither into some rando wedding, start shooting, and try to develop some clients.
Certainly not "Illegal" but probably not a big reputation and ethics booster either.

Imagine David Baily is checking on a prop, comes back to the studio and Richard Avedon is giving his card to the models.

 

[Pieter12]

Richard Avedon is giving his card to the models

Nice try, but models don't hire photographers--except maybe beginners. And they sure aren't hiring 1st class photographers. There is a whole scam business of modeling schools and photographers deceiving young models.

Also I don't know about the legality of the situation, but crashing a wedding certainly isn't ethical, especially when you then try to sponge off the hired photographer's job (assuming there is one).

 

[removed account4]

Good Grief....not a pro photographer. So i had no idea.

yea. happens often. when I was assisting back in the day, I remember people who worked in ad agencies were syphoning off jobs and photographers for side gigs, nothing new... I never did that, just did my job and when I had enough I left, whether it was when I was working for an environmental firm or freelance assisting. I guess they call it dog eat dog for a reason ..

 

[Pieter12]

yea. happens often. when I was assisting back in the day, I remember people who worked in ad agencies were syphoning off jobs and photographers for side gigs, nothing new... I never did that, just did my job and when I had enough I left, whether it was when I was working for an environmental firm or freelance assisting. I guess they call it dog eat dog for a reason ..

Sometimes an art director would try to piggy-back a freelance job along with an agency shoot. Some would call for favors of free or off-the-books, materials-only shoots if they used a certain photographer often. In fact, ad agencies would often try to get free shoots for spec work for pitches and for pro-bono clients. Taking side jobs from an agency client would spell the end of you career at an agency for sure. But many art directors and creative teams had freelance clients of their own, moonlighting and using agency facilities as much as possible without getting into trouble. On the other hand, photographers would sometimes try to shoot stock file photos on location where the agency (and client) had paid to send them and given them access.

 

[cramej]

2nd shooters traditionally hand out their cards when they are doing reception candid work and try to slit the main photographer's throat. has been done for ages..

Traditionally? Where I'm from, they get fired and earn a bad reputation pretty quick if they try to do that.

 

[removed account4]

Traditionally? Where I'm from, they get fired and earn a bad reputation pretty quick if they try to do that.

im in New England outside of Boston ... someone I apprenticed with years ago told me her 2nd shooters were doing it in the 30s and 40s, and when I was assisting I heard stories both from people who shot weddings and people who I knew who were assistants, seemed commonplace. maybe its a regional thing?
I don't do weddings, too many headaches...

Taking side jobs from an agency client would spell the end of you career at an agency for sure. But many art directors and creative teams had freelance clients of their own, moonlighting and using agency facilities as much as possible without getting into trouble.

not sure if this lady was moonlighting, or what she was doing but I remember the guy I was printing for told me the agency she was working for had no idea she snagged the jobs and hired him to do the work. she might have been getting ready to leave... reminds me of this guy ill call "the kid" who worked at this pizza place I used to go to for lunch ... the line was out the door and it was all regulars for slices and whatnot. ... the kid asks me for 5 bucks ( has been giving me food for a year so he knew me by name ) so I dug in my pockets and gave him a fin, he said he'd pay me back on Monday ... come Monday he wasn't there, or all week, I asked Ralphy his boss, he said "he asked you for 5 bucks too, he asked everyone in line he recognized and quit". .. might not be the same but as Larson E Whipsnade would say "count your change before leaving the window"

 

[CMoore]

Lets say it is 2003.
You are 50 years old and have been a Professional Photographer for the last 25 years.
It dawns on you that your lack of a digital camera and the know-how to use one has come to a head.
You need to go digital for your business to survive.

You HAVE a computer and know how to use the Internet and send an Email, but you really do not know how to "Use A Computer" .........and you know nothing about Lightroom and Photoshop.
How do you, and maybe Thousands of photographers like you, make that jump from film to digital.
How do you learn what you need to know.?