Noob seeks advice: Pentax 645 vs. Mamiya 645 vs Bronica

[macfred]

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contre - jour by macfred64, on Flickr

Bronica ETRSi - Zenzanon PE 75mm f/2.8 - Ilford XP2 (@ISO200)

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entrance hall by macfred64, on Flickr

Bronica ETRSi - Zenzanon PE 75mm f/2.8 - Kodak Portra 400

 

[Sirius Glass]

One of my first shots with my Bronnie kit :

untitled by Andreas, on Flickr
Bronica ETRSi - Zenzanon PE 75mm - AEIII prism - speed-grip

Great! You made your choice and have started using the camera. Now shoot more film and enjoy!

 

[cuthbert]

Great! You made your choice and have started using the camera. Now shoot more film and enjoy!

Actually the OP is me and I'm still waiting to get all the parts ordered from different sellers!

I hope I'll be able to obtain pictures as good as the ones on this page, to be honest on paper the Bronica seemed the most "primitive" of the three cameras I considered.

 

[mweintraub]

I hope I'll be able to obtain pictures as good as the ones on this page, to be honest on paper the Bronica seemed the most "primitive" of the three cameras I considered.

Not sure why you think it's primitive. I'm curious to hear your point of view from an outsider.

 

[cuthbert]

Not sure why you think it's primitive. I'm curious to hear your point of view from an outsider.

Leaf shutter...top speed limited to 1/500s, lightmeter sensitivity (with the best AE finder) limited from 1 Ev to 19, I heard the mechanics is...ehm rough. I also heard the screen is relatively dark in comparison to the best in class. From the reading of the documentation shooting in manual like on a SLR seems cumbersone.

The most interesting data regarding the obsolescence of the Bronica is of course the year of the introduction of the ETRsi: 1989, i appears that after the death of the founder the new management (Tamron) never cared about updating the Bronica and let her die of a long death.

Also the ETRsi is an ETRs with TTL and mirror lock, so not really a new model, of course the ETRs was more sophisticated than the original ETR tough, but we are talking about basically the same camera produced from 1978 to 2006.

If you compare it to the development of the Mamiya 645 and the Pentax you notice there is a big difference between for instance the original 645 and the 645NII.

 

[Alan Gales]

Actually the OP is me and I'm still waiting to get all the parts ordered from different sellers!

I hope I'll be able to obtain pictures as good as the ones on this page, to be honest on paper the Bronica seemed the most "primitive" of the three cameras I considered.

Primitive can be a good thing. A Nikon F2 and Leica M6 are also primitive compared to the latest DSLR but still very fine cameras.

 

[Roger Cole]

The top shutter speed is a function of leaf shutter lenses versus focal plane shutter bodies and there are advantages and disadvantages to both. The focal plane shutter gives you a higher top speed and, theoretically anyway, less expensive lenses. The leaf shutter gives you flash sync at all speeds, important for outdoor fill flash, and the ability to still use the camera if a shutter goes bad just by switching lenses. Of course it also gives you lower top speeds, theoretically more expensive and possibly delicate lenses, possible variation in shutter performance from lens to lens (one could say "definite" but it is not usually enough to make any difference) and more shutters to possibly fail or get out of calibration. Pays your money and takes your pick. If fill flash is important, go for the leaf shutter system. If highest top speed is important, go for the focal plane shutter. If you don't care much about either (like me) then disregard that difference and get the system you otherwise prefer.

 

[wiltw]

Also the ETRsi is an ETRs with TTL and mirror lock, so not really a new model, of course the ETRs was more sophisticated than the original ETR tough, but we are talking about basically the same camera produced from 1978 to 2006.

Bronica was 75% owned by Tamron starting 1995, and was fully taken over in 1998. Launched in 1989 the Bronica ETRSi added the ability to control OTF-TTL flash with the SCA system, and the ability to support the AE-III TTL metering finder at 1/12EV increments of exposure. In 2004, Tamron announced discontinuation of the Bronica brand.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Actually the OP is me and I'm still waiting to get all the parts ordered from different sellers!

I hope I'll be able to obtain pictures as good as the ones on this page, to be honest on paper the Bronica seemed the most "primitive" of the three cameras I considered.

Opps. My bad.

 

[MattKrull]

I have no idea how to link to images in the gallery, but here are three of my favourite photos taken on my ETR-Si (all with Delta 400).
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
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(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[mweintraub]

Leaf shutter...top speed limited to 1/500s, lightmeter sensitivity (with the best AE finder) limited from 1 Ev to 19, I heard the mechanics is...ehm rough. I also heard the screen is relatively dark in comparison to the best in class. From the reading of the documentation shooting in manual like on a SLR seems cumbersone.

The most interesting data regarding the obsolescence of the Bronica is of course the year of the introduction of the ETRsi: 1989, i appears that after the death of the founder the new management (Tamron) never cared about updating the Bronica and let her die of a long death.

Also the ETRsi is an ETRs with TTL and mirror lock, so not really a new model, of course the ETRs was more sophisticated than the original ETR tough, but we are talking about basically the same camera produced from 1978 to 2006.

If you compare it to the development of the Mamiya 645 and the Pentax you notice there is a big difference between for instance the original 645 and the 645NII.

I could see how some of those can be felt as primitive, but I wouldn't say because something was not improved or features weren't added to, it's primitive. As for the slower top speed, I'm happy for that because I'm planning on shooting a lot of outdoor shots with flash. I did have leaf lenses for the Mamiya 645, but it was only for that focal length.... then again, only 1/500s max.

The ETRsi kit I got came with an AE-II. I soon bought a non metered prism and WLF. I'll probably be mainly using my hand held meter, so the meter range isn't a huge factor to me.

For the mechanics, are you talking about the positions of things? I can see people think the shutter speed dial on the left as being weird. But I guess being an SQ-A user for a while doesn't make me think twice about it. The Pentax and Mamiya have the dials on the right, but that means I'd have to move my hand that's already have a good grip on the camera. I'm actually preferring the left side shutterspeed dial on the Bronicas just like the ones on the Pentax 6x7. I did always feel the manual Nikon's dial was odd too.

The top shutter speed is a function of leaf shutter lenses versus focal plane shutter bodies and there are advantages and disadvantages to both. The focal plane shutter gives you a higher top speed and, theoretically anyway, less expensive lenses. The leaf shutter gives you flash sync at all speeds, important for outdoor fill flash, and the ability to still use the camera if a shutter goes bad just by switching lenses. Of course it also gives you lower top speeds, theoretically more expensive and possibly delicate lenses, possible variation in shutter performance from lens to lens (one could say "definite" but it is not usually enough to make any difference) and more shutters to possibly fail or get out of calibration. Pays your money and takes your pick. If fill flash is important, go for the leaf shutter system. If highest top speed is important, go for the focal plane shutter. If you don't care much about either (like me) then disregard that difference and get the system you otherwise prefer.

Agreed. I will miss the faster 1/1000s, but I can use an ND filter. I can't simply add leaf shutters to all of the lenses.

 

[cuthbert]

The Bronnie body sent by Ian has arrived, it feels like a small Hasselblad, of course without lens just the mirror moves up and down at 1/500s, but I confirm so far my impression: old school camera, better made than a Mamiya (even if the body is made of plastic you don't notice it), personally I'm not bothered by the position of the shutter dial, it's the same as in old pre-Spotmatic 35mm SLR like the Kiev 17 I own, but for instance the double stroke grip feels a little like the double stroke advance lever of the first SLRs.
Big mirror clap, but removing the backs is easy and quick.
I'm looking forward to test the camera with lens and PE III prism

 

[Sirius Glass]

Now buy a lens and film and get shooting. Enjoy.

 

[cuthbert]

Now buy a lens and film and get shooting. Enjoy.

I'm waiting for the AE III prism and a 75mm PE lens to be delivered today.

 

[ignatiu5]

That was a good suggestion, Ian kindly sold me a ETRSi body with 120mm back, grip and Bronica strap for reasonable money (at least in the EU), so right now I'm expecting the AE III and the PE 75mm, I assume I have a nice Bronnie kit to start enjoying the pleasure of 6x4.5 format, hopefully all the parts will be put together and I'll have the most updated Bronica model.

I'm sorry, but this was entirely the wrong choice. For 645, you really need to consider...

I'm kidding, of course. As others have previously mentioned, all of the systems you were contemplating, including the one you picked, have been allowing people to shoot great photographs for years. I hope you enjoy your Bronnie when you get it fully assembled. That PE lens is my go-to normal focal length.

 

[Alan Gales]

I'm waiting for the AE III prism and a 75mm PE lens to be delivered today.

Well I hope you enjoy your new camera.

No one has said this but I hope you know what you are starting. Next you will want a 6x7. Then you will decide to try 4x5 then 5x7 or 8x10. Personally, I'm stopping at 8x10 but if I found an 11x14 cheap, no, no, must resist. Must resist! Still, 11X14 contact prints would look nice!

Check out Hugo! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeIPjxeTNq8

 

[cuthbert]

OK I assembled the monster:

First impression: you can't shoot manual, and with manual I intend to set the shutter speed and change the F stop with the lightmeter that tells you plus or minus. What is called "manual mode" is basically speaking a an AE priority where you have to set up the shutter speed on the camera, so totally useless IMO.

That's a big letdown, I'll use this camera just as full AE priority...besides that the Bruna feels like a good quality camera, not too big to hold, good ergonomy with the grip, VERY noisy for being a leaf shutter camera, a little bit like an Hassy.

The max speed of 1/500 worries me as usually I shoot ASA 400 but I'll try get ASA 100 or lower, I'll test the camera in the weekend, still I'm thinking that perhaps a Mamiya 645 would have been a better choice, and yes it looks like more a camera from the 70s than from the 90s.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Well, sell it and buy a Hasselblad. That is what you really wanted from the start.

 

[mweintraub]

OK I assembled the monster:

First impression: you can't shoot manual, and with manual I intend to set the shutter speed and change the F stop with the lightmeter that tells you plus or minus. What is called "manual mode" is basically speaking a an AE priority where you have to set up the shutter speed on the camera, so totally useless IMO.

That's a big letdown, I'll use this camera just as full AE priority...besides that the Bruna feels like a good quality camera, not too big to hold, good ergonomy with the grip, VERY noisy for being a leaf shutter camera, a little bit like an Hassy.

Set the A | OFF | M to M[anual] or Off.
Page 30:
http://www.cameramanuals.org/bronica/bronica_etrsi_ae_iii_prism_finder.pdf

The max speed of 1/500 worries me as usually I shoot ASA 400 but I'll try get ASA 100 or lower, I'll test the camera in the weekend, still I'm thinking that perhaps a Mamiya 645 would have been a better choice, and yes it looks like more a camera from the 70s than from the 90s.

ND filter.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/searc...7mm&ci=114&N=4026728350+4242329443+4294955266

 

[moto-uno]

Follow the above suggestions and you'll be just fine. Peter

 

[flavio81]

The max speed of 1/500 worries me

Don't worry.

I think i have never shot at 1/500 or faster in medium format. This is because depth of field is narrower, at least 2 stop narrower (in 6x4.5 or 6x6 format) to more (3 stops in 6x7 format). So in practical terms having, for example a f2.8 lens in 6x4.5 format is like having a f1.4 lens on 35mm. This also includes into account that a MF shooter will probably demand bigger, sharper enlargements than the equivalent image shot in 35mm.

Thus, with ISO 400 film, if you are under bright sunny 16 day you'll go for 1/500 f16 which will give you DOF equivalent to about f8 in 35mm format. With iso 100 film, under the same conditions, you can get down to 1/500 f8 in 6x4.5 medium format, which is like f4.0 in 35mm; good enough for reasonably narrow DOF effects. Want narrower, you'll need ND filter, but we're consider the extreme case (sunny 16, EV 15 @ ISO 100)

Shoot wide open (f2.8) in medium format, particularly in 6x7, and you will suffer to get the focus point where you want it!!

 

[cuthbert]

Well, sell it and buy a Hasselblad. That is what you really wanted from the start.

Sure?

I've bad memories of Hasselblad: it's the camera of my uncle, he showed me that Hassi when I was kid (I don't know the model, I was 8) boasting it was the greatest camera of the world, that he paid the equivalent of ten of thousands of euros of today for it and of course he never allowed me to even touch it. Since then he keeps his kit carefully stored in the original packaging, my aunt says she doubts he ever used it more than once or twice. Since then the H for me is the camera of the selfish avaricious...should I ever go square I'll choose a nutcracker like the Kiev 88CM, possibly (re)made by Arax.

Oh, all these cameras for me are pointless because they never invented something simple like the mechanical handgrip of the Bronica, probably the best feature of this camera that allows it to be used not just for landscapes on a tripod.

Set the A | OFF | M to M[anual] or Off.
Page 30:
http://www.cameramanuals.org/bronica/bronica_etrsi_ae_iii_prism_finder.pdf

Yes I have the manual of the camera, metering prism and motordrive (thinking about getting it, just because it looks cool)...in the "manual" mode you set the speed, but the prism still tell you the shutter speed it considers correct! So the "manual" more would be:

1) Setting the f stop at the lens.
2) Taking the reading (shutter speed) of the lightmeter.
3) Setting the speed according to the suggestion of the prism, obviously removing the eye from the viewfinder with the risk of missing the target, of course taking into account it's not a landscape!

The manual also suggest to under or overexpose inserting a speed different to the recommendation of the prism, but I've never done it, usually with a Spotmatic like camera with needle I simply close the diaphragm to move it down or open it to move it up, it is a simple thing that could be implemented in the AE III prism and I don't understand why they didn't do it.

Perhaps an older camera like the Mamiya M645 or the Bronica S2 has a prism more suitable to my needs?

Don't worry.

I think i have never shot at 1/500 or faster in medium format. This is because depth of field is narrower, at least 2 stop narrower (in 6x4.5 or 6x6 format) to more (3 stops in 6x7 format). So in practical terms having, for example a f2.8 lens in 6x4.5 format is like having a f1.4 lens on 35mm. This also includes into account that a MF shooter will probably demand bigger, sharper enlargements than the equivalent image shot in 35mm.

Thus, with ISO 400 film, if you are under bright sunny 16 day you'll go for 1/500 f16 which will give you DOF equivalent to about f8 in 35mm format. With iso 100 film, under the same conditions, you can get down to 1/500 f8 in 6x4.5 medium format, which is like f4.0 in 35mm; good enough for reasonably narrow DOF effects. Want narrower, you'll need ND filter, but we're consider the extreme case (sunny 16, EV 15 @ ISO 100)

Shoot wide open (f2.8) in medium format, particularly in 6x7, and you will suffer to get the focus point where you want it!!

Mmm I usually shoot wide open 10% or even 30% of my shots, I like the OOF very much and in many situation I couldn't shot at f1.2 because there was too much light, sometimes even 1/2000s wasn't enough and ofter I am too lazy to use ND filter...as a matter of fact I have none.

However, I expect the IQ of the Bruna pretty high, perhaps in the near future I'll get as a backup a M645 with 80mm 1.9 and CdS prism for "manual" metering.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Sure?

I've bad memories of Hasselblad: it's the camera of my uncle, he showed me that Hassi when I was kid (I don't know the model, I was 8) boasting it was the greatest camera of the world, that he paid the equivalent of ten of thousands of euros of today for it and of course he never allowed me to even touch it. Since then he keeps his kit carefully stored in the original packaging, my aunt says she doubts he ever used it more than once or twice. Since then the H for me is the camera of the selfish avaricious...should I ever go square I'll choose a nutcracker like the Kiev 88CM, possibly (re)made by Arax.

Oh, all these cameras for me are pointless because they never invented something simple like the mechanical handgrip of the Bronica, probably the best feature of this camera that allows it to be used not just for landscapes on a tripod.

1) I use my Hasselblads. They are not shelf queens.
2) Hasselblads conveniently fit in the palm of my left hand so I do not need a hand grip. Hassleblad does have a hand grip by the way.

I've bad memories of Hasselblad

Would like me to repair your memories? :devil:

 

[cuthbert]

1) I use my Hasselblads. They are not shelf queens.
2) Hasselblads conveniently fit in the palm of my left hand so I do not need a hand grip. Hassleblad does have a hand grip by the way.

Would like me to repair your memories? :devil:

I am not left handed so I need my strong hand to hold the camera, also I would appreciate to have a trigger and an advance lever in a rational place (that Hassy doesn't) if I have to use the camera handheld, eye level and looking for quick targets.

Let's face it: the Hasselblad is probably the camera with the worst ergonomy because it was never meant to be used in a "dynamic" manner, and the position of the controls was dictated by the internal mechanism, not any scientific studies because it was always meant to be used on a tripod.

Having said that I like this one:

It even has a 1/1000sec shutter and probably I can use it manually!

 

[mweintraub]

Sure?

I've bad memories of Hasselblad: it's the camera of my uncle, he showed me that Hassi when I was kid (I don't know the model, I was 8) boasting it was the greatest camera of the world, that he paid the equivalent of ten of thousands of euros of today for it and of course he never allowed me to even touch it. Since then he keeps his kit carefully stored in the original packaging, my aunt says she doubts he ever used it more than once or twice. Since then the H for me is the camera of the selfish avaricious...should I ever go square I'll choose a nutcracker like the Kiev 88CM, possibly (re)made by Arax.

Oh, all these cameras for me are pointless because they never invented something simple like the mechanical handgrip of the Bronica, probably the best feature of this camera that allows it to be used not just for landscapes on a tripod.

I have the 88CM. It's finicky like the Hassy, from what I've gathered. I'm thinking of selling it and keeping the SQ-A.

With 6x6, you don't "need" a handgrip to help rotate the body. You're always in both landscape and portrait orientation. But I do agree, when I'm using a prism, I prefer the hand grip. But when I use a WLF, I don't.

Yes I have the manual of the camera, metering prism and motordrive (thinking about getting it, just because it looks cool)...in the "manual" mode you set the speed, but the prism still tell you the shutter speed it considers correct! So the "manual" more would be:

1) Setting the f stop at the lens.
2) Taking the reading (shutter speed) of the lightmeter.
3) Setting the speed according to the suggestion of the prism, obviously removing the eye from the viewfinder with the risk of missing the target, of course taking into account it's not a landscape!

The manual also suggest to under or overexpose inserting a speed different to the recommendation of the prism, but I've never done it, usually with a Spotmatic like camera with needle I simply close the diaphragm to move it down or open it to move it up, it is a simple thing that could be implemented in the AE III prism and I don't understand why they didn't do it.

Perhaps an older camera like the Mamiya M645 or the Bronica S2 has a prism more suitable to my needs?

Are you using the light meter in the prism?
Question: Does the AE-III show the shutter speed the body is selected at? My SQ-A AE Prism S does (so did the Mamiya 645 Pro AE prism). It showed both the metered value and the body value (usually blinking).

Also Question: If you're just setting the shutter speed to whatever the AE-III says, why not just use AE. I guess you can't do this when you use spot meter and re-compose.