Noblex 150UX focusing

[europanorama]

Before I'll buy a Noblex, I'll rather buy a Seitz Roundshot Super, my dream camera in the 90s.

Which one Super 35, Super? . werent there different models with changing backs(70/220-Super) and fixed back Super 70 70mm only?
They is an expensive.uncontrolled Super 35 on ebay without charger and not tested. dont buy. shipping and overhauling with cost a lot.
The same advice 220vr without tilthead and not controlled. even cheap.I have RS 65/70/220-panoscope 70-conversion. 120 can be used with limitations.
Ferrania announced 70mm film. not in the near future i think.

 

[AgX]

The older Roundshot models had a fixed position of the rotating axis and thus had fixed lenses too. They were made in 8mm (ptototype), 35mm, 60mm and 70mm.
The newer models had a mount sliding along the optical axis and offered thus the feature of lens interchanability. The were made 35, 60/70, 70mm. In these models head and rotary motor could be duived from each other, thus enabling more means of panoramic photography.

 

[Paul Ozzello]

I didn't realize there were so many replies to my thread - I lost my connection for a couple of weeks and never checked back and just winged it.


I shot almost everything at f16 at both infinity and M, and some of the closer shots I also shot at N - which as it turns out is basically useless as nothing is really sharp - even close. This is true for both my cameras.


Some of my very close foregrounds are slightly soft but I'm really splitting hairs since I'm printing so large. I got several 8000dpi drum scans back and they could easily be printed 60" x 143" wide - I'm astonished at what this camera is capable of - but I would have to get a new printer since my current Epson maxes out at 44" wide. And I would have no hesitation shooting f22 on my next project - the quality of the lens is that spectacular.


Thanks to everyone who chimed in. I'll answer some of the other posts separately

 

[Paul Ozzello]

To achieve the figures on the DOF scale the COC has to be chosen as 0.06mm

The true focal setting at "Infinty." then would be 30m and at "N" 3m .

Ok, so what you are saying is that the lens doesn't actually focus at infinity but 30m ? I'm not sure if that is true in practice. When I bracket, at infinity everything very distance is razor sharp, while M is very sharp at distances from 10-30 meters. I couldn't get anything sharp at the N setting - even the ground with the camera low down.

 

[Paul Ozzello]

I have the previous model, the 150U. There are no detents for the three focus modes on the 150U, so I assumed it would work with intermediates. But I actually never tried it. As the detents were added as a feature to the 150UX, maybe that is not the case.

Are you sure that the focus indications of the camera apply to DIN A4 enlargement size? This would imply an enlargement factor of only 2.5x, which seems like not enough. Maybe it is worth to try out with a few frames, if you can get the focus you want in "m" with the lens stopped down (if there is enough light).

That place is seriously littered. That makes great pictures, but is really sad.

The litter isn't as bad as it looks, each village is self sufficient and has a graveyard for broken down vehicles. The dump is known as the Canadian Tire and people go there when they need parts.

I've never tried the U since I frequently shift the lens - but on both my 150UX the lens can only be focused at those 3 points and not in between. But I don't think it would even be necessary.

 

[AgX]

Ok, so what you are saying is that the lens doesn't actually focus at infinity but 30m ? I'm not sure if that is true in practice. When I bracket, at infinity everything very distance is razor sharp, while M is very sharp at distances from 10-30 meters. I couldn't get anything sharp at the N setting - even the ground with the camera low down.

My figures were based on doing the mathematic calculations as long as I got result as that DOF scale on the camera shows. If you in exposing with that lens get results that show different it likely means the lens ist actually not focussed at 30m at the "infinity" mark, but at true infinity or even beyond, and also the min focus distance is further off than the 3m I caculated.

 

[3dreal]

Ok, so what you are saying is that the lens doesn't actually focus at infinity but 30m ? I'm not sure if that is true in practice. When I bracket, at infinity everything very distance is razor sharp, while M is very sharp at distances from 10-30 meters. I couldn't get anything sharp at the N setting - even the ground with the camera low down.

N means Nah in german which is closeup. there is a N-special camera. see on Noblex canada-page. and there are offical DOF-tables.
I tested Widelux 1500 regarding DOF. its about how you define what is sharp enough to define DOF and so COC. on -W1500 i calculated 1/25 and yes i also had the first Noblex 150(N0 12)with closeup lens. but didnt check in details. only real differences are: a) better coating for Noblex b) below 5m (for optical reasons) W1500-sharpness is deteriorated. to see film must be enlarged or checked by loupe. we tried in vain to produce a CU-lens. Dont know how Noblex solved this problem on their focus-versions. Slit seems the same size 3mm? could be the edges on Noblex are much sharper. same behavior on newer roundshots. "better"/ sharper slits.
NB: On Roundshot 65/70/220 grandagon 65mm is tilted by 2-3°(thats why more distorted heads)-seitz sr told leading to better DOF.
Have both for W1500 and RS 65/70/220(matches all Grandagon 65Roundshots) handwritten DOF-tables. if someone is willing to " excel"-them(bring into excel-form) or other form i would scan and provide. DOF-table of Horizons is a joke per se. have comparison shots W1500/Noblex 150 made in a bank-hall. one cams lens is shifted up a bit.
We made sunshades for all three cams. They are very important. RS/W1500 lens-caps with slit(tilt on RS had to be considered when cutting slit) on Noblex we used simply the UV-filter and added tape. still have it but no cam(was testcam). not will not sell is easy making. only filters are rare/tool needed to handle them.
I also used a custommade sunshield-system sort of swanneck with black cardboard at its end on roundshot 65/70/220- someone added lens-shade at rear-lens-element. not and easy task entering there.

 

[3dreal]

My figures were based on doing the mathematic calculations as long as I got result as that DOF scale on the camera shows. If you in exposing with that lens get results that show different it likely means the lens ist actually not focussed at 30m at the "infinity" mark, but at true infinity or even beyond, and also the min focus distance is further off than the 3m I caculated.

DOF-range on Noblex-cameras thats new to me. Which ones have? I added DOF-table to my Widelux 1500-back. i have added inbetween aperture-markers. e.g. 8 I I 11 II 16 on white tape. maybe silvertape will work also. will not alter.
NB: on Roundshot 65/70/220 slit-lever(distance-setter) can be adjusted in a way that when film was loaded and cover mounted if someone forgot to set distance or infinity it was always sharp at infinity when lever was still at opening-center-position.cover cannot be removed when lever is not levelled with slit there.
Have now a domain for my rotating panoramic cameras-forum at delphiforums. www.rotatingpanoramiccameras.tk almost only analoge so dont expect traffic now. maybe it will be reviced since analogue rotadpan-cam announce from china. lets hope its really true. digital version should come too. trustful source told.

 

[Paul Ozzello]

My figures were based on doing the mathematic calculations as long as I got result as that DOF scale on the camera shows. If you in exposing with that lens get results that show different it likely means the lens ist actually not focussed at 30m at the "infinity" mark, but at true infinity or even beyond, and also the min focus distance is further off than the 3m I caculated.

Thanks for clearing that up. I think one of the previous 150 versions had a fixed focus lens that could not be adjusted - maybe that version was Focused to 30m.

 

[Paul Ozzello]

N means Nah in german which is closeup. there is a N-special camera. see on Noblex canada-page. and there are offical DOF-tables.
I tested Widelux 1500 regarding DOF. its about how you define what is sharp enough to define DOF and so COC. on -W1500 i calculated 1/25 and yes i also had the first Noblex 150(N0 19)with closeup lens. but didnt check in details. only real differences are: a) better coating for Noblex b) below 5m (for optical reasons) W1500-sharpness is deteriorated. to see film must be enlarged or checked by loupe. we tried in vain to produce a CU-lens. Dont know how Noblex solved this problem on their focus-versions. Slit seems the same size 3mm? could be the edges on Noblex are much sharper. same behavior on newer roundshots. "better"/ sharper slits.
NB: On Roundshot 65/70/220 grandagon 65mm is tilted by 2-3°(thats why more distorted heads)-seitz sr told leading to better DOF.
Have both for W1500 and RS 65/70/220(matches all Grandagon 65Roundshots) handwritten DOF-tables. if someone is willing to " excel"-them(bring into excel-form) or other form i would scan and provide. DOF-table of Horizons is a joke per se. have comparison shots W1500/Noblex 150 made in a bank-hall. one cams lens is shifted up a bit.
We made sunshades for all three cams. They are very important. RS/W1500 lens-caps with slit(tilt on RS had to be considered when cutting slit) on Noblex we used simply the UV-filter and added tape. still have it but no cam(was testcam). not will not sell is easy making. only filters are rare/tool needed to handle them.
I also used a custommade sunshield-system sort of swanneck with black cardboard at its end on roundshot 65/70/220- someone added lens-shade at rear-lens-element. not and easy task entering there.

That's an interesting theory - that the slits - both front and back contribute to increasing the depth of field. I haven't had much problem with flare since I usually shoot with cloudy skies but I would be interested in making one of those sunshades. I have plenty of filters for the camera I never use - do you have a picture of what it looks like ?

 

[3dreal]

I need some help understanding the 3 focusing zones on a Noblex 150UX.


What actual distances do the 3 focusing zones (N, M, infinity) represent?


On infinity is the lens actually focused at infinity?


Can I focus in-between these fixed zones?


I make 8ft wide prints and have mostly been shooting at f8 1/2 and infinity but sometimes the lower 1/5th of the foreground is a little too blurry and I was thinking of focus stacking.


I'd like to limit stacking to 2-3 images (to save on drum scanning costs and limit changing rolls) - at my print size can I get away with with shooting 3 images at f8 in each zone?


I have a Fotoman rangefinder but never know exactly where to set the corresponding focus on the camera for maximum image quality. I almost always want the distant background in focus but often have a foreground element at 5-7 meters that also needs be tack sharp.


Paul View attachment 225331 View attachment 225332

you would need Roundshot 220 VR. its tilting heads is generating not only shift but also enlarging DOF. together with small image(slit) it will result in supersharp images. yes not so simple and almost only with tripod. everything mentioned in prospectus with sketch.
Didnt think about focus-stacking but naturally this is possible. but not with Widelux 1500 at least not double-exposures since cam will always move a but during cocking shutter. maybe software can stack W1500 images. Thank Noblex doubleexposures are no problem. also possible in some Roundshots.
I dont know why you ask N, M and infinity when showing DOF-Table. forgot about ithat- only had the first model for 6 months for testing from a real friend.

 

[3dreal]

That's an interesting theory - that the slits - both front and back contribute to increasing the depth of field. I haven't had much problem with flare since I usually shoot with cloudy skies but I would be interested in making one of those sunshades. I have plenty of filters for the camera I never use - do you have a picture of what it looks like ?

go to my forum all Roundshot/Noblex should be there. and i could provide size of Noblex-slit on UV-filter here wait a minute. done in some minutes. Cannot show since i tape deep black IR-filter ontop that could mislead:
from top of UV-filter holes ontop and bottom slit is 9mm taped with matte tape. dont use the glossy ultrathin 3M 850F used for bellow repair. a common matte black tape. When finished show it here. and in my forum.
With shading rotapan-shooting is a big mess. let alone the horizon-problems with internal flare-my repairman replaced 202-drum.
spent endless amount of time with mentioned cams and found out a lot of tricks, e.g. nd-filtering partly(upper part-forgot name of these filters) during rotation and changing aperture during rotation.
slit-size and shape.
For roundshot 65/70/220 i executed a hint by Segal by reducing 3.5mm slit to 3mm by using the very same tape or most probably selfadhesive material to increase sharpness. never verified. we know the older rotapancams are not that sharp but very sharp compared to newer models thanks to sharper and slimmer slits.

 

[3dreal]

I need some help understanding the 3 focusing zones on a Noblex 150UX.


What actual distances do the 3 focusing zones (N, M, infinity) represent?


On infinity is the lens actually focused at infinity?


Can I focus in-between these fixed zones?


I make 8ft wide prints and have mostly been shooting at f8 1/2 and infinity but sometimes the lower 1/5th of the foreground is a little too blurry and I was thinking of focus stacking.


I'd like to limit stacking to 2-3 images (to save on drum scanning costs and limit changing rolls) - at my print size can I get away with with shooting 3 images at f8 in each zone?


I have a Fotoman rangefinder but never know exactly where to set the corresponding focus on the camera for maximum image quality. I almost always want the distant background in focus but often have a foreground element at 5-7 meters that also needs be tack sharp.


Paul View attachment 225331 View attachment 225332

Roundshot 65/70/220 grandagon 65/4.5. f16: 4.5- inf,. remember defraction may start at 11/16(must verify maybe its in my forum),
large DOF thanks to larger COC. scale has values but inbetween possible,
Widelux 1500(less sharp than Noblex(supersharp) :f8 10.1m(its not 10.1m but first added mark meant)=7.5-inf. -f11 inbetween 5.2 and 10(very little space to add markers)=5.5-inf. I calculated COC =1/48 mm. it all depend how sharp and tiny target is to verify if it can be read. maybe W1500 lens has smaller COC. i suspect even 1/25 but then my DOF-table would be untrue(for very tiny subjects when enlarged very big). Maybe someone with optical skills can interprete my formulas on the sheet i dont remember how i calculated DOF. I used a texas instrument calculator where formula was programmed.

 

[3dreal]

Before I'll buy a Noblex, I'll rather buy a Seitz Roundshot Super, my dream camera in the 90s.

which one? multiple versions built. Super 70 with 220 module also. maybe called Master 5 inch(have tiny image from seitz chrismas card with exotic cams. rather unaffordable. 30k or more? who has the price-lists red and yellow? chinese-menue super 60.
NB: No more colorfilms 220, 70 and 126/127mm(5 inch) hard to get and old. Only b+w ortho and IR 70mm left. and Ferrania P30 70mm announced.5 inch ilford only unrealistic amount of lenghts produced and avalable.
btw: 220 can be exposed in Noblex. have a workaround somewhere. True/tested for Noblex 150.
also in Widelux 1500 only 220-films used for aerials. changing 120 all the time costly. shooting aerials with noblex when windy is a big problem since drum is very lightweight. rotation could be interrupted. thats why there was an aerial cage(may definition) for RS 65EL.

 

[AgX]

I considerd all: 35mm, 60mm and 70mm. The problem with 60mm was the short length of films, with 70 the lack of emulsion choices.
On the other hand with the a vast range of 35mm format lenses at offer that would be not economical at 35mm film, but better yields a 45mm high image.
But these wide strips soon come to their limits at conventional enlarging even at a LF classic enlarger.

 

[3dreal]

The older Roundshot models had a fixed position of the rotating axis and thus had fixed lenses too. They were made in 8mm (ptototype), 35mm, 60mm and 70mm.
The newer models had a mount sliding along the optical axis and offered thus the feature of lens interchanability. The were made 35, 60/70, 70mm. In these models head and rotary motor could be duived from each other, thus enabling more means of panoramic photography.

60mm is wrong if then 120/61.5mm maybe 220 could be used most probably ask Seitz.
e.g. RS 47/120 was a prototype or first series without slit(which was added right after testing with owner_1981).
18 000 chf paid before being built which i hadnt.

 

[AgX]

I used 60mm as shortterm for 61.5mm as that hardly anyone understands to my experience.

 

[3dreal]

DOF- table by Noblex cannot be true. Too optimistic at least the infinities.
til infinity 5,6 N 6.1m-inf. W1500 21.4m-inf.
f8 Noblex 4.7m -inf. W1500 15m- inf.
f11 N 3.7m -inf. " 10.9m-inf.
f16 N 2.8m -inf. " 7.5m- inf.
f22 N 2.1m- inf. " 5.45m-inf.

I considered all: 35mm, 60mm and 70mm. The problem with 60mm was the short length of films, with 70 the lack of emulsion choices.
On the other hand with the a vast range of 35mm format lenses at offer that would be not economical at 35mm film, but better yields a 45mm high image.
But these wide strips soon come to their limits at conventional enlarging even at a LF classic enlarger.

lookaround has a special enlarger/construction plans in free ebook. have prints by alan zinn. and seitz made one also unaffordable none in service anymore have seen earlier ones at Stutz Foto Color Technik..
did a lot of 220 shooting and filmdevelopment easy. even 220-lenght of 70m film. with or without special 2570 spool.
and one can still stitch 120. yes i had a huge problem when agfa switzerland told no 70mm film 400 ASA but there were in germany/headquartier. me first search for 70/400 worldwide without success. and 220 400 had to be imported from usa always. early 90. had to change films after 4 shots and image heigth was 54mm not 60mm(70mm film) leading to cut heads at munich bear festival indoors-magificient shots at 1/4 45sec/60 default(on paper-they made it quicker).
almost B+H was guilty me without the right films on location. Lufthansa saved me and Swissair(NYC-office) let me staying in the rain. will post all my dramatic rotapancam-stories one day in my forum.

 

[AgX]

Yes, I considerd making my own slit-exposure-unit... as the Seitz one was unaffordable and the only other commercial one I came across seemed to be a prototype only.

 

[3dreal]

To achieve the figures on the DOF scale the COC has to be chosen as 0.06mm

The true focal setting at "Infinty." then would be 30m and at "N" 3m .

if 1/16 would be true the smaller DOF in W1500 would lead to larger COC meaning e.g. 1/5 which is unrealistic.
Noblex 50 have clearly tinier COC leading to smaller DOF than W1500(larger DOF, larger DOF.
1/Xn= COC
X must be larger/tinier COC than 1/Xw
n= Noblex 150 and newer-w=Widelux 1500
If 1/48 is true for W1500 (could also be 1/25)then Noblex must be 1/32 or 1/48. Pls could someone find the formula and calculate.

 

[3dreal]

Yes, I considerd making my own slit-exposure-unit... as the Seitz one was unaffordable and the only other commercial one I came across seemed to be a prototype only.

The kaiser-based by Noblex. good idea. but not my beer. only printed 4x5 pieces on 20 x50cm-colorpaper. 122mm length.
NB. I still have a lookaround prototype-improved a bit and for zeiss lenses incl. shift from 18 to 35mm-4-5 lenses/FLs 18, 24/25, 28, 35mm.
Lens mount for shift must be adjusted since diameter too large for proper mounting. never used one day with UP-35mm 1m only. hard to figure out rotation time. easy adjusting rotation-speed changings from bright(quicker) to dark-slower. Maybe Lookaround-site in archive.

 

[3dreal]

I am not sure whether I understand your question?

The Noblex has these three focus settings - in between might work but are not in the manual - and you have the table on the camera with the distances (metric system) which will be in focus. If you want to increase the focuse near to you, either stop down or switch to “m”.

f8 with the focus at infinity will render everything from 4,70m to infinity sharply onto the film, anything nearer to you will be blurry. If you switch to f11 and to “m”, anything from 2,80m to infity will be focused.

The viewfinder of the camera is not for focusing. With the Noblex, you always have to guess distances or measure outside the camera.

About your print size: 8 feet wide is quite a challenge. Considering that one negative is only about 12 cm wide, you are roughly enlarging by factor 20x. I am not sure how you do the stacking, but I would not expect the prints to be 100% crisp. But a 8 feet wide the print is viewed from a certain distance, so you should be fine.

noblex images are razorsharp. 8 feet 20x is no problem at all. Rainer K. lampinen told his technopan(inside is the later S3Pro-maybe they had an agreement not to produce 8 exposure times version under Horizon brand) could easily produce images which were 6m long more than twice these 8 feet.

 

[3dreal]

I have some documentation from Kamera Werk Dresden on the Noblex 150 cameras. Both of the documents specify distances associated with the three focus settings as 2.8m, 6.5m and 17.2m, respectively. One of the documents uses the term "middle admission distance" to refer to these numbers, while the other uses the term "maximum of sharpness". So I think it's reasonable to interpret these as the actual focus settings.

Each of these distances has associated with it a further specification referred to as "unscharfenkreis" or "spot diameter" - I believe this is a circle-of-confusion specification, presumably used to calculate the depth-of-field numbers provided, though I have not tried to run the calculations myself to confirm that. Interestingly, this specification varies - 0.05mm for the M and infinity settings, but 0.07mm for the N setting.

 

[3dreal]

yes 1/14 for N close and 1/20 for M midrange is highly interesting. Noblex lens is sharper better resolution than W 1500. so DOF less optimistic. but the opposite is showing the table. W1500 table showing less optimistic. should be larger DOF then since larger COC. something really strange here. pity i have no Noblex. Had one on my list but other more important investments and cams more urgent. would have liked to test with Technical Pan.

 

[Paul Ozzello]

noblex images are razorsharp. 8 feet 20x is no problem at all. Rainer K. lampinen told his technopan(inside is the later S3Pro-maybe they had an agreement not to produce 8 exposure times version under Horizon brand) could easily produce images which were 6m long more than twice these 8 feet.

That's my experience with the Noblex. It's razor sharp from edge to edge. It's the only camera that comes close to the resolution of my SWC/M Biogon 38mm. Some small details are only visible if printing larger than 60" x 143", it's amazing. I find it hard to believe that the Seitz lens would be any better.