Noblex 150UX focusing

[Paul Ozzello]

I need some help understanding the 3 focusing zones on a Noblex 150UX.


What actual distances do the 3 focusing zones (N, M, infinity) represent?


On infinity is the lens actually focused at infinity?


Can I focus in-between these fixed zones?


I make 8ft wide prints and have mostly been shooting at f8 1/2 and infinity but sometimes the lower 1/5th of the foreground is a little too blurry and I was thinking of focus stacking.


I'd like to limit stacking to 2-3 images (to save on drum scanning costs and limit changing rolls) - at my print size can I get away with with shooting 3 images at f8 in each zone?


I have a Fotoman rangefinder but never know exactly where to set the corresponding focus on the camera for maximum image quality. I almost always want the distant background in focus but often have a foreground element at 5-7 meters that also needs be tack sharp.


Paul

 

[soulstar89]

sadly i am of no help for your problem but i have to say you work is top quality. hope you find the answers

 

[Paul Ozzello]

Thank you

 

[RauschenOderKorn]

I am not sure whether I understand your question?

The Noblex has these three focus settings - in between might work but are not in the manual - and you have the table on the camera with the distances (metric system) which will be in focus. If you want to increase the focuse near to you, either stop down or switch to “m”.

f8 with the focus at infinity will render everything from 4,70m to infinity sharply onto the film, anything nearer to you will be blurry. If you switch to f11 and to “m”, anything from 2,80m to infity will be focused.

The viewfinder of the camera is not for focusing. With the Noblex, you always have to guess distances or measure outside the camera.

About your print size: 8 feet wide is quite a challenge. Considering that one negative is only about 12 cm wide, you are roughly enlarging by factor 20x. I am not sure how you do the stacking, but I would not expect the prints to be 100% crisp. But a 8 feet wide the print is viewed from a certain distance, so you should be fine.

 

[Paul Ozzello]

I am not sure whether I understand your question?

The Noblex has these three focus settings - in between might work but are not in the manual - and you have the table on the camera with the distances (metric system) which will be in focus. If you want to increase the focuse near to you, either stop down or switch to “m”.

f8 with the focus at infinity will render everything from 4,70m to infinity sharply onto the film, anything nearer to you will be blurry. If you switch to f11 and to “m”, anything from 2,80m to infity will be focused.

The viewfinder of the camera is not for focusing. With the Noblex, you always have to guess distances or measure outside the camera.

About your print size: 8 feet wide is quite a challenge. Considering that one negative is only about 12 cm wide, you are roughly enlarging by factor 20x. I am not sure how you do the stacking, but I would not expect the prints to be 100% crisp. But a 8 feet wide the print is viewed from a certain distance, so you should be fine.

Thank you for the reply. The chart on the camera indicates the hyperfocal distance for each focus setting, but I think it is applicable for smaller A4 size prints only. The lens is extremely sharp and prints can "easily" be made VERY large with proper camera technique (I have included a sample crop from one of my images at 8.5 feet wide to show what is possible) - and since the lens rotates the sweet spot of the lens is used across the entire frame.

I have been focusing mostly at infinity since most of my subjects are very distant, but I often include closer foreground elements that also require to be very sharp - ideally I would like to focus a second frame on the near subject and stop down to f8 - f11, and then stack it with very sharp background image. But on "M" I don't really know at what distance the lens is focused at, only that wide open it's somewhere between 4.2 and 14.8 meters, and on N somewhere between 2.1 and 4.2 meters. I use a seperate rangefinder to measure distances, but when I measure a NEAR subject at 4 meters, I don't know if I should use N or M.

N,M, and Infinity focus points have "detents", and I'm not sure it's possible to focus in between these points, and if I could I would need to know roughly what the N and M actual focus distances are.

I could just shoot at all three settings but I am in the Arctic with a limited amount of film remaining and I only get 6 frames per roll

8.5ft wide crop at 100%

 

[AgX]

To achieve the figures on the DOF scale the COC has to be chosen as 0.06mm

The true focal setting at "Infinty." then would be 30m and at "N" 3m .

 

[Oren Grad]

What actual distances do the 3 focusing zones (N, M, infinity) represent?

I have some documentation from Kamera Werk Dresden on the Noblex 150 cameras. Both of the documents specify distances associated with the three focus settings as 2.8m, 6.5m and 17.2m, respectively. One of the documents uses the term "middle admission distance" to refer to these numbers, while the other uses the term "maximum of sharpness". So I think it's reasonable to interpret these as the actual focus settings.

Each of these distances has associated with it a further specification referred to as "unscharfenkreis" or "spot diameter" - I believe this is a circle-of-confusion specification, presumably used to calculate the depth-of-field numbers provided, though I have not tried to run the calculations myself to confirm that. Interestingly, this specification varies - 0.05mm for the M and infinity settings, but 0.07mm for the N setting.

 

[RauschenOderKorn]

I have the previous model, the 150U. There are no detents for the three focus modes on the 150U, so I assumed it would work with intermediates. But I actually never tried it. As the detents were added as a feature to the 150UX, maybe that is not the case.

Are you sure that the focus indications of the camera apply to DIN A4 enlargement size? This would imply an enlargement factor of only 2.5x, which seems like not enough. Maybe it is worth to try out with a few frames, if you can get the focus you want in "m" with the lens stopped down (if there is enough light).

That place is seriously littered. That makes great pictures, but is really sad.

 

[Jerevan]

Bungling in ... but what about N being "Nah" (near) and M being Mittel (middle) and the whole chart thing just being the depth of field for a given aperture?

 

[AgX]

See post #6.

 

[europanorama]

To achieve the figures on the DOF scale the COC has to be chosen as 0.06mm

The true focal setting at "Infinty." then would be 30m and at "N" 3m .

Had the 150 for 6 month with closeup filter. Have Widelux 1500(a rebuilt one now most possible perfect) . From my intensive DOF and sharpness-tests made on the street i can tell: W1500 COC is 1/25 = 0.04. the smaller it is the sharper the image but DOF is also reduced(smaller). so Noblex has 0.06 =1/16.66mm so much sharper which i confirm. beside better coating. If some Panon Widelux 1500-user is willing to transfer my data into an excel-sheet i am willing to send him the sheet if he will then circulate it to forums. Sharpness of Panon-W150-lens set below 5m will always deteriorated, no chance to correct. we tried with CU-lens without sucess. dont know how Noble solved this since same slitsize 3mm. I only know there were endless amount of problems. thats why noblex was born and later Widepan/Panflex and russian Horizon 205 PC/Pan 120.
check detailson my rotating panoramic cameras-forum at delphiforums.

One of these cams has the lens shifted up a bit or is not centered perfectly. have indoor-shots with both cams of a roundshaped bank-hall-also roundshot 360-images.
Regarding COC-value it can be defined by oneself. it depends at which unsharpness subjects are outside defined DOF.

 

[europanorama]

I have the previous model, the 150U. There are no detents for the three focus modes on the 150U, so I assumed it would work with intermediates. But I actually never tried it. As the detents were added as a feature to the 150UX, maybe that is not the case.

Are you sure that the focus indications of the camera apply to DIN A4 enlargement size? This would imply an enlargement factor of only 2.5x, which seems like not enough. Maybe it is worth to try out with a few frames, if you can get the focus you want in "m" with the lens stopped down (if there is enough light).

That place is seriously littered. That makes great pictures, but is really sad.

Whats the difference between 150 U and UX? both have the SLOMO-module. and Panolux.
And what is 150 UN? on noblex canada site. siggi rohde former Noble-man.

Test test sharpness not DOF i was alsways shooting down from a big building. in the case of Widelux 1500(badly constructed first series) we had to build a u-shape(normally for roundshot 65/70/220 to shift down since shift goes only up). Why? W1500 was so imprecise that lower part of image was out of focus. by rotating cam we could compare the same subject. it was a big pain and a lot went wrong 1990. all in my forum at delphiforums. after Horizont/Horizon came Panon Widelux 1500-problems. lost half of my lifetime with these.

 

[AgX]

From my intensive DOF and sharpness-tests made on the street i can tell: W1500 COC is 1/25 = 0.04. the smaller it is the sharper the image but DOF is also reduced(smaller). so Noblex has 0.06 =1/16.66mm so much sharper which i confirm.

The COC is by definition not a value to be measured in tests, but a theoretical value. It is independant of the design of the lens.

 

[RauschenOderKorn]

And what is 150 UN?

The 150UN has a modified lens for close-ups only, It cannot Focus to infinity.

Whats the difference between 150 U and UX?

As far as I know, the differences are subtle and do not show in the regular datasheet. But we have discovered in this thread, that the UX has detents in the selectors which the U does not have. Furthermore the UX has the DOF-table on the back and an external selector for the lens-shift, which the U does not have. I do not know about the parts used, but it seems, the differences between the U and the UX mainly relate to ergonomics.

 

[3dreal]

Yes i remember now a macro-only version. its on noblex-canada-site.
I have opened a new U-UX-.thread.
Btw:from Panon Widelux 1500 i have DOF-data-sheet handwritten. will upload when i have time. i calculated with 1/25mm COC(circle of confusiuon(), the smaller the sharper. discussion about determing COC will be opened then. if not from factory COC can be calculated by judging DOF and when image is not sharp anymore(outside definex DOF then).

 

[3dreal]

COC_ so there must be a norm to measure COC. if not available one can define it oneself. if subject at near or far-point is not sharp anymore its outside DOF. i made outdoors-DOF-test, not with a Siemens-star, but by positioning sheets with written numbers(at stacle-distance and at far and near-postions to find out DOF. in Widelux 1500 on distance scaöei had set intermediates( two bars inbetween scale). DOF-Table calculated with 1/25mm COC is very precise. without i would be lost. between 2 and 3m 2.1 2.2 on table since no space writing on scale.

 

[3dreal]

i must correct. The smaller the COC the sharper. 1/16,66 of noblex is very conservative.
since noblex lens is sharper(let alone better coated than Widelux 1500-lens) COC must be at least 1/32mm or smaller.
W1500_1/25mm maybe 1/30mm

 

[europanorama]

precision camera confirmed 150 U and UX can takeup both Panolux and Slomo-Grip can be used also on U AFTER overhaul which will cost 330 usd. plus shipping. Drum will turn backward ny about 100° to accelerate. instead of one full forward-rotation on older models incl. 150 U(hope i am right pls confirm). Only dont know if there still are differences between overhauled 150 U and 150 UX
This would mean a long delay. is prerotation 360 always at the same speed or depending exposure-rotation-speed.
Keep in mind with 150/175 Noblexes. When windy wind could alter rotationspeed. That why i like my overhauled Widelux 1500 which caused me so much troubles after purchasing from Adorama and replacement by Panon with the very same Sh...t. Kubuta told one must accept.... Had to press him sending me a new one and not returnijng it to Adorama. I now understand why they didnt want to send testimages.... Could rent it from FotoGregor during Photokina and avoiduing all the mess. and get Noblex two years later 1992. Only didnt know. Pro Photo Connection didnt reply my Fax when i asked aboiut Electropan. the base of later Noblex, an invention by Cornelius Schorle. BTW: Noble betrayed him which is very sad. Noble-son pulled the company to the ground by losing fathers in Real-estate-speculations(in east-germany?).
I was told there will be not only new digital rotapancamera but also analogue coming from asia a very trustful source told. They are now capable of doing HQ-work at affordable prices.
I have Widelux-DOF-sheet calculated and visually check if someone will make and show us an excel-sheet. could upload pdf scan.
Noble Canada had filter-service.

 

[AgX]

Keep in mind with 150/175 Noblexes. When windy wind could alter rotationspeed.

Interesting.

 

[europanorama]

Interesting.

Thats why i am on the mechanical-rotopancam-side. heavy wind will change rotation-speed. i didnt test but had a 150 fro 6 months i know how smooth drum is rotating. new cam have short pre-backrotation. older ones make one empty rotation which is delaying images. dont know from which model on the useful prerotation(around 180° i was told) is integrated. only know precision camera is doing complete overhauls for 330 usd. recently confirmed.

 

[europanorama]

Keep in mind when purchasing new Horizon rotapancam. They have all fixed focus. and different rotation-speeds and exposure speed-combinations.
I was told topmodel S3pro has best slitsize/speedcombination. 0.26/8 sec rotating time and four slit sized from 6mm downwards.
Most importan-i tested it: New S3Pro-lens is NOT BETTER its worse than in 202. It has diffraction starting at f16 which would be important to get enough DOF. forget DOF-table its wrong. not true. there are workaround to increase DOF a) closeuplens 0.25? mounted in filter-adapter. b) dymotape on filmrails. c) changing lens to film-distance. discussion in multiple forums and my rotating panoramic cameras forum at delphiforums.
I had a comparison-proof at pbase until they deleted. will not reupp. one can check oneself my using a 30x loupe. but only compare a sharp 220-shot with S3Pro pls.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Here’s a copy of my Noblex 150 DOF chart (in feet) plus focus distances with the 0.5 and 0.25 diopter closeup lenses, two small copies on one sheet of paper, so I could have one taped to the back of the camera and one in my notebook. I’m not sure if your model uses the same distances, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it does. I keep a tape measure in my bag with all the focal distances marked with colored labels (0 diopter, .25 diopter, and .5 diopter).

Generally, with any camera, I tend to stop down one stop from the calculated recommendation, because that’s what looks sharp to me, and if I’m hoping to make a big enlargement, I stop down two stops. I could recompute the DOF tables with a smaller value for CoC to account for the greater enlargement factor, but it would likely get me to the same place as just thinking “I want it a little sharper, so I’ll stop down an extra stop.” I don’t enlarge enough to worry about diffraction at f:22 for medium format—it’s always going to be a smaller factor than DOF.

 

[AgX]

Before I'll buy a Noblex, I'll rather buy a Seitz Roundshot Super, my dream camera in the 90s.

 

[europanorama]

Here’s a copy of my Noblex 150 DOF chart (in feet) plus focus distances with the 0.5 and 0.25 diopter closeup lenses, two small copies on one sheet of paper, so I could have one taped to the back of the camera and one in my notebook. I’m not sure if your model uses the same distances, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it does. I keep a tape measure in my bag with all the focal distances marked with colored labels (0 diopter, .25 diopter, and .5 diopter).

Generally, with any camera, I tend to stop down one stop from the calculated recommendation, because that’s what looks sharp to me, and if I’m hoping to make a big enlargement, I stop down two stops. I could recompute the DOF tables with a smaller value for CoC to account for the greater enlargement factor, but it would likely get me to the same place as just thinking “I want it a little sharper, so I’ll stop down an extra stop.” I don’t enlarge enough to worry about diffraction at f:22 for medium format—it’s always going to be a smaller factor than DOF.

Highly interesting. have got similarDOF-table for Panon Widelux 1500. tested outdoors with focus-targets.Would need someone setting up-translating my handwritten chart into a real chart. and dechiffre what i have written about COC. Better opening a new thread about W1500. also found a bubble-level-solution. Original killed during a surgery(not by me....)
btw: my rotatingpanoramiccameras-forum -since 25 years or more- has a domain now. www.rotatingpanoramicameras.tk
Dont trust any Horizont/Horizon-DOF chart-Not telling the truth. maybe true when looking at a 10 inch wide print at 3m....i am exagerrating. I already found out the diffraction-problem in new lens of the horizon past 202-series. modern-shapes bodies like S3Pro.

 

[europanorama]

The 150UN has a modified lens for close-ups only, It cannot Focus to infinity.



As far as I know, the differences are subtle and do not show in the regular datasheet. But we have discovered in this thread, that the UX has detents in the selectors which the U does not have. Furthermore the UX has the DOF-table on the back and an external selector for the lens-shift, which the U does not have. I do not know about the parts used, but it seems, the differences between the U and the UX mainly relate to ergonomics.

Only the UX and overhauled U have slomo-motor. costs are 330 usd at precision camera usa. i was told by them.