Nikon PB-6 on a mirrorless digital camera: reproduction ratios change?

[fdonadio]

Hello, all!


As a follow-up to this thread, I have finally found some peaceful time to start scanning my negatives with my digital camera. But I've found that my combination of Nikon Z6 II, FTZ adapter, PB-6 bellows and El-Nikkor 50mm f/2.8 is not giving me a 1:1 reproduction ratio. No matter what I do, I can't figure out what's happening.

In my mind, it's probably because the FTZ adapter pushes the bellows farther away from the sensor. So, when I compress the bellows to the minimum length, I still can't focus at 1:1 and I don't get the whole negative/slide on the sensor.

I am a little bit dizzy today — still recovering from a bad cold — and maybe (?) my rational capabilities are limited.

So, I ask: in the case I am right in my suspicions above, do I need a shorter or longer lens?

 

[Nitroplait]

In my mind, it's probably because the FTZ adapter pushes the bellows farther away from the sensor.

The FTZ only “moves” the bellows to the distance from the sensor of the F mount, so that shouldn’t matter.

 

[fdonadio]

OK, so it's not because of the FTZ adapter alone, but also because of the distance of the lens. With a Nikon Series E 50mm f/1.8, I get the whole negative and can focus. The bellows is still squeezed, but it works.

Now I don't believe this 50mm would be a good candidate for this. Maybe the 55mm Micro-Nikkor would be a better fit?

 

[fdonadio]

The FTZ only “moves” the bellows to the distance from the sensor of the F mount, so that shouldn’t matter.

Yeah, what you say makes perfect sense, sure... and that's what I had thought previously, but maybe this is not the case with the El-Nikkor?

 

[Nitroplait]

I don’t know if a EL Nikker ever worked for 1:1 in a DSLR or SLR setup. If not, it will not work here.

I use a Z6ii + FTZ +PB-5 + Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8 + PS-4 and i have plenty of wiggle room.

Non-AI 55/3.5 micro nikkors are cheap as dirt and works great.

 

[fdonadio]

I don’t know if a EL Nikker ever worked for 1:1 in a DSLR or SLR setup. If not, it will not work here.

I use a Z6ii + FTZ +PB-5 + Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8 + PS-4 and i have plenty of wiggle room.

Non-AI 55/3.5 micro nikkors are cheap as dirt and works great.

Thank you so much much for the tip. I'll be on the market for one of these ASAIC.

 

[Ardpatrick]

Do you have the negative / slide holder that attaches to the front of the bellows? If not, how are you rigging up the film holder and how close / far is it from the taking lens? Can you focus the negative even if at less than 1:1 ratio?

I have a PB-4 bellows with the film holder in use with a D800. It works fine with a range of lenses for 1:1 repro of 35mm. The best option is a micro-Nikkor 60mm AF-D, but also works with a 105mm micro-nikkor and an 80mm enlarger lens.

 

[gorbas]

Do you have the negative / slide holder that attaches to the front of the bellows? If not, how are you rigging up the film holder and how close / far is it from the taking lens? Can you focus the negative even if at less than 1:1 ratio?

Fully squeeze bellows and play just with film holder distance. Those Nikon bellows are designed to have 1:1 with minimum extension, 55mm Micro nikkor at infinity and full frame camera. If you still don't have full negative frame you can move to longer lens 55, 60, 75 or 80mm.

 

[Chan Tran]

I will try the EL-Nikkor 50mm f/2.8 with the PB-6 and an an F mount camera (Df or D850). I doubt that it could do 1:1. I often use the EL-Nikkor 80mm f/5.6 because the 50mm the magnification is way too high.

 

[fdonadio]

Do you have the negative / slide holder that attaches to the front of the bellows?

I have the PS-6.

Can you focus the negative even if at less than 1:1 ratio?

Yes, I can, but I don’t get the whole negative in the frame. I could scan in parts and stitch, but it’s a lot of work.

Fully squeeze bellows and play just with film holder distance.

I did this instinctively while trying different extensions and distances. It’s the best I can get, either with the El-Nikkor or the E Series 50mm.

 

[fdonadio]

I will try the EL-Nikkor 50mm f/2.8 with the PB-6 and an an F mount camera (Df or D850). I doubt that it could do 1:1. I often use the EL-Nikkor 80mm f/5.6 because the 50mm the magnification is way too high.

Thanks for the help, but I think you don’t even need to try. Seems the El-Nikkor’s magnification is really too high. I’m gonna get me a longer lens.

 

[Nitroplait]

@fdonadio Here's an older snap of my setup.

Set to cover a little more than the full 35mm frame - to include the edges outside the frame.

Approximately 1-1.5cm of room to move on the PB-5.
Lens set to 2m.
Probably around 5-6cm from front of Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8 to the film plane on the PS-4.
I normally scan at f/8.


The setup was the same when I used a Micro-Nikkor 55/3.5 (Non-Ai).

 

[Ian C]

It’s not a mystery. The 50 mm enlarger lens is simply too far from the image plane making the magnification too great.

Try an 80 mm enlarger lens. For example, an 80 mm f/5.6N EL Nikkor has an 55 mm flange distance, while the 50 mm f.2.8N has a 43 mm flange distance.

An 80 mm lens achieves 1:1 magnification when its rear nodal point is about 160 mm from the image plane (sensor). The flange distance of the 80 mm f5.6N EL Nikkor is 55 mm. So that places the lens flange about 135 mm from the sensor. That should be easily done with the PB4 or PB6 bellows unit. Other 80 mm enlarging lenses will have similar dimensions.

 

[Chan Tran]

Thanks for the help, but I think you don’t even need to try. Seems the El-Nikkor’s magnification is really too high. I’m gonna get me a longer lens.

While I do agree to use longer focal length lens if you want to use EL-Nikkor but I think it's possible to use the EL-Nikkor 50mm by not using the bellow but simply use some short extension tube. Mounting the EL-Nikkor 50mm directly on the FTZ would result in less than 1:1 magnification so you would need a little more extension. Mounting the lens on the FTZ would work but mounting the lens directly on an F mount camera wouldn't because the lens protrudes into the mirror box and interferes with the mirror. Although I did get it to work by turning liveview on first before mounting the lens. I know it's a risky operation

 

[Ian C]

The idea of Post #14 will work. However, there is a problem with using a enlarger lens + an extension tube. Since the enlarger lens lacks a helicoid focus, the magnification will be FIXED. It might be too little or too great. The bellows unit eliminates this constraint by allowing you to vary the distance from the lens to the film or sensor continuously. This gives you continuously variable magnification allowing precise sizing of the focused image.

 

[Dan Fromm]

OP, if you have a 55 mm MicroNikkor or a 60, use it instead of the enlarging lens you're determined to use. I have PB-4 and PS-4, they all copy slides full frame with 55 MicroNikkors (my wife's f/3.5 AI, my f/2.8 AIS). So does my ES-1. All this gear on a D810.

If I read the specs correctly, your Z6 II is a full frame camera, as is my D810. There's no reason why my slide copy rigs won't work on it. With, of course, the right lens, not with an enlarging lens and adapters from M39-to-F mount.

 

[benderscameracorner]

Currently my scanning rig uses PB-6 bellows with a Schneider Componon-S 5.6/100mm enlarger lens and a full frame DSLR (Canon 6D)... it's a little fiddly to set up and focus, but I'm able to fill the frame with negatives from 110/16mm to 6x7 on a pretty standard height copy stand (less than 500mm tall from memory).

I have a couple of 50mm enlarging lenses (another Schneider Componon-S and the Nikkor EL) and found those more difficult to use, kept running out of extension/adjustment.

I will say though, I only use the above as I currently don't have a good quality macro lens... bellows etc. are a pain to use especially if you scan multiple formats. From what research I've done, a quality macro lens in the 90mm-100mm (full frame) range has no more distortion than most enlarging lenses, and is much quicker and more stable to use.

 

[gorbas]

I just tried El Nikkor's 2.8/50 and 2.8/50N on Nikon PB-5 bellows (fully closed) and negative holder PS-4 at 68mm distance and did not have any issue filling the frame. Distance between film plane and lens flange was 111mm. I even had small white border around full frame line. Not the most comfortable way of doing it, but doable. For my own work and comfort I'm using 75mm lens. Maybe there is small difference with PB-6 design, but I doubt it?

 

[fdonadio]

@fdonadio Here's an older snap of my setup.

Yes, that's pretty much what I had expected to get as a result. But it seems it isn't possible in my setup. Thanks for the photo of your rig. It's pretty much what I wanted to have here.

 

[fdonadio]

It’s not a mystery. The 50 mm enlarger lens is simply too far from the image plane making the magnification too great.

Try an 80 mm enlarger lens. For example, an 80 mm f/5.6N EL Nikkor has an 55 mm flange distance, while the 50 mm f.2.8N has a 43 mm flange distance.

An 80 mm lens achieves 1:1 magnification when its rear nodal point is about 160 mm from the image plane (sensor). The flange distance of the 80 mm f5.6N EL Nikkor is 55 mm. So that places the lens flange about 135 mm from the sensor. That should be easily done with the PB4 or PB6 bellows unit. Other 80 mm enlarging lenses will have similar dimensions.

That's what I have concluded, so I just snagged a Schneider Componon-S 5.6/80 for €45. Should be here in a couple days.

Anyway, I do shoot medium format (6x6) and the lens will be useful for enlarging too. The community darkroom I am going to use don't supply lenses in their enlargers. You gotta BYO. So now I'm covered.

 

[fdonadio]

OP, if you have a 55 mm MicroNikkor or a 60, use it instead of the enlarging lens you're determined to use.

I am not determined to use that at all. My question in the original post pretty much confirms this.

I've thought about getting a real shooting lens, but I can't spend too much right now and I can't find a Micro-Nikkor 105mm f/4 or something like it at a good price. The 55mm is even more expensive. The AF-D 60mm are bulky. I guess I've made a good choice on the Componon-S.

 

[fdonadio]

I just tried El Nikkor's 2.8/50 and 2.8/50N on Nikon PB-5 bellows (fully closed) and negative holder PS-4 at 68mm distance and did not have any issue filling the frame.

From what I had read before buying this setup (it all came in a package), I was pretty sure it would work. That's why I was so confused in my original post.

I have just tried it again and I still can't get it to work. Well, I guess my solution will arrive in the mail in the next couple days anyway.

Thanks everyone for chiming in and let's hope for the better.

 

[fdonadio]

It seems some nightmares never end...

Today I have finally bit the bullet and tried my newly bought 80mm El-Nikkor. I had to extend it to around 160mm from the sensor plane to focus at 1:1, which made it impossible to focus on the negative, as there's not enough rail to get it further away! I need more rail... or I should have gotten a shorter lens (the Micro-Nikkor 55mm comes to mind). Looks like the 80mm El-Nikkor wasn't a good buy after all.

If I opt to go the rail extension route, the best price I've found for a PB-6 extension rail (PB-6E) is €160...

A Negative Supply film strip holder kit costs about €170 at Fotoimpex and is suitable for 135 and 120 film. I could get an enlarger column for free (or dirt cheap), turn it into a copy stand and use that holder. Only missing thing is a light source (I was using a flash with the PB-6 and PS-6), I will be something else for the holder, as it's designed to be used on a table top.

Or I could buy the 55mm Micro-Nikkor, use the PS-6 and stick with only 135 film. I've just found an f/2.8 AI-s specimen, not too far from here (20 minutes in the subway), for €95. Sounds like a good price, but the seller doesn't seem to be specialised in photo, so the optics could be not so good.

Oh, boy...

(Edit: typo)

 

[Ian C]

If you install one or more extension tubes between the rear of the bellows unit and the camera, the camera will be placed rearward relative to the bellows unit. This will give you more open space at the front for the 80 mm lens and slide copier. The tubes can be used either singly or in combination as needed.

This is a Kenko Nikon AF set that will work with a Nikon DSLR. It also works on an F-mount SLR (film).

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/375238-REG/Kenko_AEXTUBEDGN_Auto_Extension_Tube_Set.html

https://kenkousa.com/products/auto-extension-tube-set-dg-for-nikon-f-mount

 

[gorbas]

It seems some nightmares never end...

Today I have finally bit the bullet and tried my newly bought 80mm El-Nikkor. I had to extend it to around 160mm from the sensor plane to focus at 1:1, which made it impossible to focus on the negative, as there's not enough rail to get it further away! I need more rail... or I should have gotten a shorter lens (the Micro-Nikkor 55mm comes to mind). Looks like the 80mm El-Nikkor wasn't a good buy after all.

If I opt to go the rail extension route, the best price I've found for a PB-6 extension rail (PB-6E) is €160...

A Negative Supply film strip holder kit costs about €170 at Fotoimpex and is suitable for 135 and 120 film. I could get an enlarger column for free (or dirt cheap), turn it into a copy stand and use that holder. Only missing thing is a light source (I was using a flash with the PB-6 and PS-6), I will be something else for the holder, as it's designed to be used on a table top.

Or I could buy the 55mm Micro-Nikkor, use the PS-6 and stick with only 135 film. I've just found an f/2.8 AI-s specimen, not too far from here (20 minutes in the subway), for €95. Sounds like a good price, but the seller doesn't seem to be specialised in photo, so the optics could be not so good.

Oh, boy...

(Edit: typo)

?
Can you please send us pictures of your set up?
You should not have any issues copying 24x36mm film to Full frame sensor camera with 80mm lens. Eventually I settled to 75mm lens for this task with Nikon PB-5, but in experimenting phase I used 80mm lenses from Nikon, Schneider, Rodenstock and Minolta. Never had an issue with not having enough extension.