New ortho 120 film from Foma

[Helge]

For sky, your idea is probably very effective. But the point of the K filters was also general contrast, which photographers always have used at least a Med Y filter both for orthochromatic and panchromatic film. When I am shooting fast film, I will use Med Y until the light stops dropping a lot, at which point I just take it off, but that is me. I have gotten great shots without it, and others just don't use it. The effect in the end is subtle and does come at a price in speed, but I feel I prefer to have the medY filter if prevailing light and film speed support using it.

Good modern panchromatic films (such as Ilford and Kodak, as well as some others) have a pretty flat spectral response across colors. The eye does not, and you can end up with little distinguishing between colors. Of course it is also good to consider what the colors are, and in some cases pick a different filter color to exploit. Just a simple example- this picture had small yellow flowers in the grass. I used MedY, and it helped to distinguish them a bit. It was FP4+, so I suspect it would have been fine without the MedY, but with MedY it gave just that extra zing. The grass may have had some blue in it, because it looks dark. If I were using Hp5+ for instance (generally less contrasty than FP4+), and no filter, the flowers may have looked light, the grass lighter also, but the flowers may have blended in more to the grass, not sure.

Generally, I like the way various vegetation turns out with FP4+, which I always shoot with MedY. I must admit I have not done testing without MedY, but I strongly suspect the MedY does help.


Bucklin scene 2 by Mark Wyatt, on Flickr

Almost all plants has some of the substance that makes indigo. That’s why ortho/blue filters also brightens plants to a degree.
Naked TMax renders plants much darker.

Contrast doesn’t seem to be a problem for this film.
Centering in on the extremes on the visual spectrum tends to increase contrast for some reason. Perhaps that is why most of living beings has centered on approximately the “visible spectrum”.

Subtly great photo BTW. Great composition and tones.

 

[albireo]

A few Foma Ortho 400 samples. Just a few snaps around the neighbourhood, for the time being.

First a few samples in strong contrasty light. Highlights show strong halation. Just to stress this: the effect comes from the film, and not from somewhere else in the workflow (camera lens is pristine, a hood was on at all times, film scanner lens is pristine).

More examples in less contrasty light (partially overcast, partial shade for the second, almost complete shade for the final one)

Technicalities: incident Exposure with a Sekonic 398 III meter set for 200EI; Fomadon R09 1+50 (Kodak agitation) 10 minutes, AP tank, plastic reels; Fomacitro Stop, Fomafix Fixer, tap water wash followed by final bath in distilled water and Fotonal. Raw linear positive negative scans in Vuescan, 16bit/channel, followed by inversion and standard monitor gamma correction. All automatic software processing by Vuescan was deactivated. No other non-linearities, editing etc applied, apart from setting of the black point and resizing. Importantly, the relative tonal response across the spectrum has not been altered in any way.

 

[markjwyatt]

Nice. Red bricks? Did you use a filter?

What color was the Vespa panel? Red stop light on back of bicycle (came out black, in deep shade also). I see the strong halation effects. This could be seen as a "feature" of the film.

 

[albireo]

Nice. Red bricks? Did you use a filter?

What color was the Vespa panel? Red stop light on back of bicycle (came out black, in deep shade also). I see the strong halation effects. This could be seen as a "feature" of the film.

Hi Mark. Reddish/ochre bricks, Light blue Vespa. Red stop light. No filter used - lens was a Planar in the first two images and a Xenar (Tessar) in the last three. You can see the difference I think. Last one was close to wide open. I quite like the ortho+Tessar out of focus/wide open effect. Someone with a Triotar might get really nice stuff out of this.

 

[markjwyatt]

Hi Mark. Reddish/ochre bricks, Light blue Vespa. Red stop light. No filter used - lens was a Planar in the first two images and a Xenar (Tessar) in the last three. You can see the difference I think. Last one was close to wide open. I quite like the ortho+Tessar out of focus/wide open effect. Someone with a Triotar might get really nice stuff out of this.

Thanks albiero, the pictures turned out nicely. I also like the Tessar type lenses.

I hate to sound like I am grilling you, but there were bricks in the retaining wall (those came out dark, but resolved nicely), and also in the block wall behind the chair (those came out lighter). Were they both of the same/similar color? What color is the chair? This is a good first look at this film. (Thank you!)

The Vespa reference is interesting. Lot of blue sensitivity it sounds like (as would be expected).

 

[albireo]

I hate to sound like I am grilling you, but there were bricks in the retaining wall (those came out dark, but resolved nicely), and also in the block wall behind the chair (those came out lighter). Were they both of the same/similar color? What color is the chair? This is a good first look at this film. (Thank you!)

No problem. I will have to check, however the bricks in the retaining wall were definitely darker than the ones in the block wall behind the chair. The ones behind the chair seem to have had some (worn) light beige/cream coating applied.

What's interesting I thought is the clay plant pot (last image, centre). It's very red, and it was rendered close to black.

 

[markjwyatt]

No problem. I will have to check, however the bricks in the retaining wall were definitely darker than the ones in the block wall behind the chair. The ones behind the chair seem to have had some (worn) light beige/cream coating applied.

What's interesting I thought is the clay plant pot (last image, centre). It's very red, and it was rendered close to black.

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[albireo]

Another example. Old light grey Mercedes. Evident highlight glow. Noticeably finer grain than Foma 400 in the same workflow.

 

[pentaxuser]

Another example. Old light grey Mercedes. Evident highlight glow. Noticeably finer grain than Foma 400 in the same workflow.

Any idea why this Foma Ortho 400 should have finer grain that Foma 400? I presume that there is something in its manufacture that makes a difference to grain but what this might be I have no idea

I need to say as well that had you not mentioned highlight glow I don't think I'd have picked this out as different from what I'd expect to see in any normal film shot such as HP5+ Perhaps a comparison shot alongside of say HP5+might show the glow better in my case

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[albireo]

I need to say as well that had you not mentioned highlight glow I don't think I'd have picked this out as different from what I'd expect to see in any normal film shot such as HP5+ Perhaps a comparison shot alongside of say HP5+might show the glow better in my case

Thanks

pentaxuser

Hi Pentax, I'll see if I can take a few more sample shots to highlight this specific feature of the film.

 

[pentaxuser]

Hi Pentax, I'll see if I can take a few more sample shots to highlight this specific feature of the film.

Thanks. Any idea of why this 400 Ortho has a smaller grain than the Pan 400 film?. Is it something that Foma had deliberately aimed for or is it just an intrinsic feature of Ortho film when the speeds are the same?

What speed did you in fact use for this film when taking the grey Mercedes

Much appreciated

pentaxuser

 

[albireo]

Thanks. Any idea of why this 400 Ortho has a smaller grain than the Pan 400 film?. Is it something that Foma had deliberately aimed for or is it just an intrinsic feature of Ortho film when the speeds are the same?

No idea and it's an observation that should be tested further, in other workflows, too. They appear to be quite different products, and I suspect the poster above suggesting this Ortho derives from Foma's radiographic product is right. We will see once more systematic testing is performed.

What speed did you in fact use for this film when taking the grey Mercedes

Same as for the first two Planar shots. 200EI, incident.

 

[Roger Cole]

Thanks Don. What I was thinking of is that with a panchro film any folds in a black(the red equivalent) sweater normally show up if the development is correct so I had thought the same would apply here. OK I accept there is a tendency for a black garment not to show detail in the likes of folds and development might be more critical

pentaxuser

I can see folds in the garment in the Ortho shot - not as prominently of course but I can see them. Maybe my monitor is set brighter than yours?

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks albireo and Roger. Good to know that you can see folds in the garment as based on your observation they are clearly there

pentaxuser

 

[JPD]

Thanks for the examples. The halation glow in the highlights is beautiful, and the tonal range looks very good. I must buy a couple of rolls and try it myself.

 

[albireo]

Thanks for the examples. The halation glow in the highlights is beautiful, and the tonal range looks very good. I must buy a couple of rolls and try it myself.

You're welcome. Please do share your thoughts once you get round to trying it.

I need to say as well that had you not mentioned highlight glow I don't think I'd have picked this out as different from what I'd expect to see in any normal film

I wonder if the following example can better show the effect I'm seeing. There is some 'glow' around the sunlit flower buds in the centre of the image. The glow is only present in areas illuminated by, or reflecting, strong/harsh/pointy light. The effect in some images seems akin to using a diffusion lens filter, albeit a 'selective' one, that only works on the highlights and not on the midtones/shadows.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for the flower buds shot. As I said it may be that my eyes are less suited to seeing a glow than others. Yes I see a kind of glow in the highlights of the central buds but is this not the sort of highlights that tend to show up like this in some intensely sunlit highlights even if the film is a panchro one?

pentaxuser

 

[georg16nik]

Thanks for the flower buds shot. As I said it may be that my eyes are less suited to seeing a glow than others. Yes I see a kind of glow in the highlights of the central buds but is this not the sort of highlights that tend to show up like this in some intensely sunlit highlights even if the film is a panchro one?

pentaxuser

Such glow is quite normal, expected and most likely intentional characteristic – this film is coated on polyester base without antihalation layer.

In medium format the baking paper helps a lot and I doubt Foma will release this film in 135 or other formats without changing the base and/or adding some antihalation layer.

Using a lens hood and filtration could easily tame the glow a bit but if your camera's pressure plate is glossy, then all bets are off. That was the case with the good old Efke IR820 AURA in 120 and 135 – with some cameras the 135 behaved like AURA+ while the 120 was not as wild

Another favorite film of mine – Polypan F 35mm is also capable of decent highlights glow.

 

[albireo]

Using a lens hood and filtration could easily tame the glow a bit

Just to clarify, the samples I posted above were all taken with a lens hood. A hood will make no difference to the glow I'm observing, which is a by-product of the lack of anti-halation layer. The people out there who use Kentmere 400 in 35mm, or Agfaphoto APX 400 in 35mm, or Fomapan 400 in 35mm (but NOT in 120) will be familiar with this effect. It's due most likely to the light of the bright object scattering around its neighbourhood on the emulsion.

 

[georg16nik]

Just to clarify, the samples I posted above were all taken with a lens hood. A hood will make no difference to the glow I'm observing, which is a by-product of the lack of anti-halation layer. The people out there who use Kentmere 400 in 35mm, or Agfaphoto APX 400 in 35mm, or Fomapan 400 in 35mm (but NOT in 120) will be familiar with this effect. It's due most likely to the light of the bright object scattering around its neighbourhood on the emulsion.

Depending on scenery surfaces, light source, direction – the hood, the lens, coatings and filters – all play part in what you get on film, mostly in 135 and formats without backing paper.
In your shots the taming is mostly from the backing paper, like I wrote in the paragraph prior to the one you quoted.

Can't speak of Kentmere 400 in 35mm nor the current Agfaphoto APX 400, although pre-2009, Agfaphoto APX 400 and 100 were coated on triacetate base and there was no glow.
Same for the last Fomapan 400 in 35mm I used to shoot ~ year 2008 or so – the film was coated on triacetate base, I bulk load it from 30m roll.

Overall, I have shot kilometers of film coated on polyester base – with and without antihalation layer.

 

[pentaxuser]

Apart from a short journey into Delta 400 and the odd original Agfa 400 film, I have shot HP5+ nearly all of my photographic life . The anti-halation of HP5+ is quite pronounced so I wonder if my sensitivity to "glow" has been dulled by this and never using films that exhibit the effects of no anti-halation? Equally HP5+ has a reputation for a flat greyness in comparison with other films. Might this be helped by its anti-halation?

Just some thoughts


pentaxuser

 

[georg16nik]

Apart from a short journey into Delta 400 and the odd original Agfa 400 film, I have shot HP5+ nearly all of my photographic life . The anti-halation of HP5+ is quite pronounced so I wonder if my sensitivity to "glow" has been dulled by this and never using films that exhibit the effects of no anti-halation? Equally HP5+ has a reputation for a flat greyness in comparison with other films. Might this be helped by its anti-halation?

Just some thoughts


pentaxuser

I agree about HP5+ – it's a feature and for a good reason.
But there are times you really need that glow!

 

[pentaxuser]

I have just re-read this thread now and what a pity that albireo's examples are no longer available to be seen as it makes a nonsense of some of the threads that comment on albireo's pictures

Anyone any idea why these have disappeared so soon after they first appeared? Is it a Photrio problem or due to something beyond Photrio's control?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[albireo]

I have just re-read this thread now and what a pity that albireo's examples are no longer available to be seen as it makes a nonsense of some of the threads that comment on albireo's pictures

Anyone any idea why these have disappeared so soon after they first appeared? Is it a Photrio problem or due to something beyond Photrio's control?

Hi @pentaxuser - no mystery here, I normally use imgur to share image samples, and then link to the images on there from whatever platform I'm using.

Within imgur, I am blind to which images are currently shared and where, and every now and then when I can't remember anymore why I had an image uploaded on that platform in the first place, I'll do a cull. This resulted in photrio being left with a broken link. Apologies. I will reupload a few samples.

 

[albireo]

I think these were the ones we were discussing a few months ago

Technicalities: incident Exposure with a Sekonic 398 III meter set for 200EI; Fomadon R09 1+50 (Kodak agitation) 10 minutes, AP tank, plastic reels; Fomacitro Stop, Fomafix Fixer, tap water wash followed by final bath in distilled water and Fotonal. Raw linear positive negative scans in Vuescan, 16bit/channel, followed by inversion and standard monitor gamma correction. All automatic software processing by Vuescan was deactivated. No other non-linearities, editing etc applied, apart from setting of the black point and resizing. Importantly, the relative tonal response across the spectrum has not been altered in any way.

crop from last sample - central part of the frame

These were taken last Summer and I must admit I haven't used much of the stuff since then. I am just not a big fan of the dreamy highlight haloes (hopefully pretty noticeable in the last sample). I like the ortho spectral response a lot, but when I got into this Foma Ortho I was hoping for a sharp, clean higher sensitivity alternative to Ilford Ortho 80, and this Foma Ortho is not that.

I am not an 'anti-halation' purist at all: in fact, I use a lot of other film with minimal or no anti-halation layer such as Foma 400 in 35mm and Kentmere 400. However, I find this Foma Ortho produces more dramatic highlight glow than the other ones I've tried, in my workflow, and in comparable high contrast conditions. I just haven't felt inclined to pick a roll of it for my photo walk instead of the other stuff I have. Need to reassess it with some more thorough testing.