New LF user. 1963 Crown Graphic.

[subtlelikeatrex]

Hi folks. I've had a LF camera for about 4 days now and I am beyond psyched. I've already made 4 test shots and developed them with the Stearman Press 645 developing tank and they came out looking good as far as I can tell (I haven't tried to do contact prints of the negs yet).

I picked up a Graflex Crown Graphic 4x5 from a camera swap meet over the weekend. The lens mounted in the lens board is a Schneider Kreuznach 135mm f4.7 lens and, if I understand the whole lens vs shutter thing in these older lenses, the shutter is a Synchro-Compur-P.

From what I've read, the Crown Graphic is a good beginner camera for a first-time large format photographer (which is fine bc that's what I am) and one that I may outgrow. Similarly, the lens it came with seems to be a budget/beginner lens that performs well in general but doesn't allow for movement of the front standard. This is just what I’ve read from various forums.

Now my main concern is the lens elements. Without even removing the lens board from the camera I can see that there are a few large specs inside the lens. Once I removed the lens board to inspect the back side of the lens, I could see lots of small particles of dust inside the lens as well. Additionally there appears to be something that I fear is fungus inside, closer to the rear element. (I will attach photos if I can figure out how). On top of that, there appears to be lots of fine, (and hopefully light) circular scratches on the front element. It looks like someone used their shirt to try to wipe the lens.

I guess the main question is this: Is this lens worth sending out for a CLA? Basically, is the value of the lens not worth what it might cost to get it serviced, especially considering the potential fungus? Or should I just shop for a different lens from ebay or some reputable online source?

Secondly: I'm quite confused about the whole lens board compatibility matter. Do most LF lens boards have the same size hole that will accept any old LF lens? Can I remove this lens from the crown graphic’s lens board and add a different lens to it at all? If yes, how do I tell what lenses will fit?

Thanks!

 

[B.S.Kumar]

You said your negatives are looking good. That's what counts.

Scratches will lower contrast and induce flare, but these issues can be minimized by shading the lens, wither with your hand or a gobo. Unfortunately, these cameras do not accept compendium hoods.

If the fungus is on the surface of the cells, you can easily clean it off. Just unscrew the cells from the shutter. If you are reasonably careful and can handle small precision tools, you can try and open the cells to get to the elements themselves. It will be good training to keep your lenses clean. This is an already damaged, inexpensive lens. There's nothing to be lost if you mess up.

The lens has an image circle of 161mm at f/16, so there isn't much room for movements. If your camera has a Graflok style back, you might consider a roll film holder and use it learn movements. You will need to be more careful while focusing, composing and determining near and far focusing points, but that is a good thing anyway. Or, you can let some areas go black and learn to compose within the illuminated area.

Use the lens until you're sure your images are suffering because of lack of coverage, lack of contrast or anything else.

Kumar

 

[Paul Howell]

You might need to hunt around for lens hood and set of filters. I have 2 135 from my Crown, a Graphic and Ziess, the Ziess is older than the Graphic but I think a bit sharper, but has lower contrast due to have a early single coating. I use a UV filter on both lens take Kodak Series VI slip on lens hood and filters. If your rangefinder is accurate you can do things with your Crown that you cannot do with a view camera, like use a monopod while hiking. The downside is limited movements, and as noted by B.SKumar your Schneider has limited coverage.

 

[BrianShaw]

Good advice thus far. Let me suggest you get the correct size Series filter adapter and hood/shade. It’s not difficult to get decent series filters too. Check out FilterFind.net. Tim can get you the right parts for a good price.

Regarding servicing the shutter and lens… forget the value proposition of the lens/shutter “value” vs cost of another replacement and focus on the value proposition of how much a properly operating shutter will support your photography. Buying another old lens/shutter is a crapshoot; professional servicing of what you have will assure continued reliability for a long time.

 

[subtlelikeatrex]

You said your negatives are looking good. That's what counts.

Scratches will lower contrast and induce flare, but these issues can be minimized by shading the lens, wither with your hand or a gobo. Unfortunately, these cameras do not accept compendium hoods.

If the fungus is on the surface of the cells, you can easily clean it off. Just unscrew the cells from the shutter. If you are reasonably careful and can handle small precision tools, you can try and open the cells to get to the elements themselves. It will be good training to keep your lenses clean. This is an already damaged, inexpensive lens. There's nothing to be lost if you mess up.

The lens has an image circle of 161mm at f/16, so there isn't much room for movements. If your camera has a Graflok style back, you might consider a roll film holder and use it learn movements. You will need to be more careful while focusing, composing and determining near and far focusing points, but that is a good thing anyway. Or, you can let some areas go black and learn to compose within the illuminated area.

Use the lens until you're sure your images are suffering because of lack of coverage, lack of contrast or anything else.

Kumar

Thanks, Kumar!
For clarification…based on the context I’m guessing when you say “cells” that you are referring to the individual pieces of glass that make up the whole lens. Am I understanding correctly?

José

 

[subtlelikeatrex]

You might need to hunt around for lens hood and set of filters. I have 2 135 from my Crown, a Graphic and Ziess, the Ziess is older than the Graphic but I think a bit sharper, but has lower contrast due to have a early single coating. I use a UV filter on both lens take Kodak Series VI slip on lens hood and filters. If your rangefinder is accurate you can do things with your Crown that you cannot do with a view camera, like use a monopod while hiking. The downside is limited movements, and as noted by B.SKumar your Schneider has limited coverage.

Hi Paul.
The previous owner did give me a couple of filter adapters since this lens has a filter size of, IIRC, 40.5mm.

I will definitely get a UV filter for it.

Sadly there was no rangefinder with the camera when I purchased it. I am the third owner of this camera at least. It’s probably had more owners but who knows.

Thanks,
José

 

[subtlelikeatrex]

Good advice thus far. Let me suggest you get the correct size Series filter adapter and hood/shade. It’s not difficult to get decent series filters too. Check out FilterFind.net. Tim can get you the right parts for a good price.

Regarding servicing the shutter and lens… forget the value proposition of the lens/shutter “value” vs cost of another replacement and focus on the value proposition of how much a properly operating shutter will support your photography. Buying another old lens/shutter is a crapshoot; professional servicing of what you have will assure continued reliability for a long time.

Brian, thanks for the tip re: filterfind.net.

I appreciate your point about the cost value vs the supportive value of the lens in good working order. It’s good advice.

Regards,
José

 

[btaylor]

As Mr Kumar suggested, remove the lens cells from the shutter, they just unscrew, and clean them. That does not involve taking the lens elements apart. Then take some shots! One tool I find invaluable for my many old leaf shutters is a shutter speed tester. I make a chart for each shutter with actual speeds as opposed to the marked ones. If the tested speeds are consistent I leave them alone. If not, I have the shutter CLA’d.

 

[F4U]

You will need a shutter speed tester off ebay. And you need to clean the glass wherever your skill allows you to gain access. Judging by the front element scratches, the shutter itself needs a CLA, and find a new lens to go in it. As for any replacement, f you choose that route, simply find a used lens identical. One thing I can assuredly tell you, is that any shutter will need CLA, or you will be in for nothing but heartache. You'll never be able to pin down proper exposure.

 

[koraks]

Judging by the front element scratches, the shutter itself needs a CLA

I don't follow how the mild cleaning marks say anything about the condition of the shutter. There's no relation between these things whatsoever. The cleaning marks, btw, look very mild for a lens this age. They wouldn't bother me in the least; they can simply be ignored. I'd just clean up those two bits of fungus.

I also don't see why there would be a need to purchase a shutter tester. In a pinch, a smartphone with its sound recording can be used to verify shutter timings to verify how far they're off. Yes, that's right: not verify if they are off, because they are for sure! Just how far they are off, so this can be kept in mind in the field.

One thing I can assuredly tell you, is that any shutter will need CLA, or you will be in for nothing but heartache.

What nonsense. I haven't CLA'd any of my LF shutters. None, zero.

 

[subtlelikeatrex]

In a pinch, a smartphone with its sound recording can be used to verify shutter timings to verify how far they're off.

I love this tip! I'm googling it now. Thanks!!!

 

[subtlelikeatrex]

I don't follow how the mild cleaning marks say anything about the condition of the shutter. There's no relation between these things whatsoever.

I was wondering about that myself.

 

[koraks]

I was wondering about that myself.

The reasoning is probably something like "lens has cleaning marks, therefore lens must be old, therefore shutter is old, old shutters always requite CLA, therefore this shutter needs to be CLA'd". To my taste there are way too many assumptions in that line of reasoning.

Personally, I'd verify the shutter speeds by making an audio recording and using something like Audacity to measure the time between opening and closing. This will get you plenty close enough on an LF shutter. The fastest speeds will probably be slow by up to a stop. Don't worry about it. If the slow speeds stick, which is kind of common on these shutters, exercise the shutter a couple of dozen times on those speeds. Do that every day for a week. Then do another recording and see if the problem has reduced; in all likelihood, you'll notice that (1) the slow speeds a closer to what they should be and more importantly (2) they're more consistent. At that point, I generally call it good and just use the shutter as is.

 

[subtlelikeatrex]

Personally, I'd verify the shutter speeds by making an audio recording and using something like Audacity to measure the time between opening and closing.

Fortunately for me, I did college radio for 4 years so I already have Audacity on my laptop.
Thanks again, Koraks!
And thanks to everyone on this forum who has replied with helpful information. You folks are way nicer than the people in the rock climbing forums

 

[koraks]

You folks are way nicer than the people in the rock climbing forums

Wait until we get to discussing overhangs and the correct way to tie a prusic!
Seriously though, glad to hear!

 

[subtlelikeatrex]

Wait until we get to discussing overhangs and the correct way to tie a prusic!
Seriously though, glad to hear!

I've hit a nerve! Haha.

 

[Don_ih]

Secondly: I'm quite confused about the whole lens board compatibility matter. Do most LF lens boards have the same size hole that will accept any old LF lens? Can I remove this lens from the crown graphic’s lens board and add a different lens to it at all? If yes, how do I tell what lenses will fit?

The hole in your board is for that lens. There are common size holes, so you can likely find another lens that will fit it. You can often find lenses already in a Crown Graphic lensboard - you can maybe look for that.

You can find a lot of information at https://www.graflex.org/

 

[ntenny]

The hole in your board is for that lens.

Well, it’s for that *shutter*. A different lens in the same size shutter can be swapped in; newer shutters are standardized on a few sizes, but I’m not sure about Compur dimensions. SK Grimes have a table on their site: https://skgrimes.com/shutters/

-NT

 

[Don_ih]

Well, it’s for that *shutter*.

Yes. But it is simpler to consider the entire unit a lens, since it complicates thing to start looking into fitting new elements to a shutter.

Especially for someone new to large format, it can lead to expensive mistakes.

 

[Donald Qualls]

a smartphone with its sound recording can be used to verify shutter timings

Many smart phones also have "slow motion" video capability, which is another way to both verify the shutter speed times (200+ frames per second, not good above 1/100 or so, but most large format is done at slower shutter speeds anyway) -- and verify that the opening and closing are smooth and symmetrical (a slow opening and closing shutter will underexpose even if the speed is fairly close).