New Layoffs at Eastman Kodak

[Xmas]

Yes, bringing film back to Harrow is a pipe dream.

It is possible that Kodak Alaris could buy Ferrania or Fuji film and rebadge it. How successful that would be is undermined.

With Kodak motion film sales down 90% this year alone, we might not have to wait long to see how this story ends.

You dont mean like Neopan or cine?
Foma would package for them Ilford and Agfa might to but rebadging in yellow boxes... why?

 

[alanrockwood]

When was the last time Kodak ran a lot of consumer film on their coating machines?

 

[Wayne]

All of you. Go to your rooms.

 

[Ektagraphic]

Eastman Kodak makes all Kodak film. Kodak Alaris buys the still film from Eastman Kodak, and then markets it. Kodak Alaris also markets Kodak chemistry, and manufactures and markets Kodak colour photographic paper. Most likely, the colour paper is the largest part of their business.

I have understood this all along, but it still confuses me that the film boxes still say Eastman Kodak Company and have no mention of Kodak Alaris.


Dan, that is an EXCELLENT photograph! Keep up the outstanding work, as usual!

It is getting so hot and steamy in this thread! We need to throw some fixer on this mess. Ha!

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Here in Rochester, there's still a really big hole where Kodak used to be...

Sadly, Rochester is not the only place where that is the case...



Ken

 

[MattKing]

I have understood this all along, but it still confuses me that the film boxes still say Eastman Kodak Company and have no mention of Kodak Alaris.


Dan, that is an EXCELLENT photograph! Keep up the outstanding work, as usual!

It is getting so hot and steamy in this thread! We need to throw some fixer on this mess. Ha!

I posted elsewhere that I saw the first reference recently to Kodak Alaris on some T-Max developer (RS, IIRC).

And I see a fair amount of the chemistry now with labeling that indicates that it is made in Germany - in some cases for Eastman Kodak, but in most cases for Kodak Sarl, which I understand to be the subsidiary of Eastman Kodak based in Germany. The change to German manufacture predated Kodak Alaris.

I think they are just using up the labels and containers that they have in hand.

 

[Xmas]

When was the last time Kodak ran a lot of consumer film on their coating machines?

UK Harrow and France did until 2004-5 don't think they did much cine they might not have had B&H perf or packaging.

 

[cmacd123]

Kodak did shift a lot of production around. I think for one year ALL the Movie Negative was going to be made in toronto, and I did get some short ends with EASTMAN SA'FETY FILM marked on them (Indicating toronto Production. And I also get one roll of Eastman Colour Marked SAFE'TY indicating French production.

Until a few years ago all Super 8 was done in France. They since moved it to Colorado, and then back to Rochester.

To be fair to Kodak they were trying to downsize without knowing where the market was going. They decided to pull everything into the most modern plant near head office, but that turned out to be too big.

If I was a Kodak executive I could understand being nervous about the alternative of closing Rochester and moving some production to Toronto or Harrow or Australia. All of which were in hindsight closer to the needed size. And All would have needed upgrades to be up to the latest standards.

 

[Xmas]

Kodak did shift a lot of production around. I think for one year ALL the Movie Negative was going to be made in toronto, and I did get some short ends with EASTMAN SA'FETY FILM marked on them (Indicating toronto Production. And I also get one roll of Eastman Colour Marked SAFE'TY indicating French production.

Until a few years ago all Super 8 was done in France. They since moved it to Colorado, and then back to Rochester.

To be fair to Kodak they were trying to downsize without knowing where the market was going. They decided to pull everything into the most modern plant near head office, but that turned out to be too big.

If I was a Kodak executive I could understand being nervous about the alternative of closing Rochester and moving some production to Toronto or Harrow or Australia. All of which were in hindsight closer to the needed size. And All would have needed upgrades to be up to the latest standards.

No sale they made more profit doing it this way you are modelling wanting them to make film for a longer time.

Their problem is their new ventures have not come on stream quickly enough.

They have not been good from 65 or so.

 

[Jeff Kubach]

Losing your job is a bummer, it has happen to me several times.

Jeff

 

[benjiboy]

Losing your job is a bummer, it has happen to me several times.

Jeff

Me too Jeff several times in a fifty year career, but I was never without a job for long, I even got another job at the age of 64 because I wasn't ready to retire yet .and I worked until I was 66.

 

[Wayne]

I'll be working till I croak or stroke

 

[NB23]

It's not clear if Kodak Alaris has any capability to change their film offerings. Do they have technical talent and facilities to produce new formulations?

Where would these be produced?

Without these, KA is nothing more but a marketing/sales office that can only offer up whatever Eastman Kodak gives them. When EK shuts down film production, KA will be unable to continue to sell film.

They (KA) seems to be stuck in a very hard situation.

Hmmm... So basically, Kodak Alaris can buy film from Foma and rebrand it as Kodak Tri-X, yes? I mean, I'm not far off, am I?

 

[RattyMouse]

Hmmm... So basically, Kodak Alaris can buy film from Foma and rebrand it as Kodak Tri-X, yes? I mean, I'm not far off, am I?

Technically they COULD do that, but realistically that would be suicide for them, film wise anyway.

 

[Xmas]

Technically they COULD do that, but realistically that would be suicide for them, film wise anyway.

You mean like Nikon getting Cosina to make bodies or Zeiss getting Cosina to make lenses?

 

[Nehalem501]

Technically they COULD do that, but realistically that would be suicide for them, film wise anyway.

Why ? If KA orders Tri-X from any producer I think they'll want the producer to use the right formula. So Tri-X would still be the same, I don't care where is made the film and by whom if it's the same film using the same formula.

 

[pdeeh]

The difficulty is that it has been repeatedly asserted - by those who understand how film is made - that emulsion making and coating is not just a question of mixing up the correct ingredients in a pot and dumping them in a coating hopper; there is art and craft in the process as well as science, so that Kodak can make (e.g.) Tri-X exactly as it is because they have not only the formula but also the know-how in the workforce.

Accordingly, you could hand the formula to Foma, and you would perhaps get a decent enough film back, but it wouldn't be Tri-X, whatever you chose to put on the boxes. And of course by the same token if you gave the Fomapan200 formula to Kodak, you wouldn't get the same film out of their coaters that come out of Foma's ...

The question remains open whether enough people would really worry enough to not buy the Tri-X rebrand or remake ... but then again Tri-X has been reformulated by Kodak themselves a few times hasn't it? As presumably have most of the films on the market today.

 

[Nehalem501]

When I say the same, I mean the same overall aspect of the photos. Which I assume KA would try to respect. Even if the process of making film is complicated, they can make precise specs about how the film has to be done to be close to the original. All the craft and so on can always be reproduced. I assume KA could have access to the secrets of all the manufacturing aspects and have another film maker to reproduce them.
If Apple would like to change the factory in China where they make iPhones for whatever reason, they could do it. Why KA would not if they are issues with EK ?

 

[pdeeh]

All the craft and so on can always be reproduced.

the point that I'm making (based on what acknowledged experts like PE say) is that it is can't always be reproduced, and if it can is extremely difficult and thus expensive to do so, perhaps sometimes verging on the impossible.

If Apple would like to change the factory in China where they make iPhones for whatever reason, they could do it. Why KA would nott if they are issues with EK ?

That's very far from being a close analogy, thus doesn't support the argument very well if at all.

 

[analoguey]

I disagree, I think, it is a good analogy, but one that possibly ignores some things, like Apple's design for factory layout wouldnt be easy to switch either, I reckon -especially given their 'secrecy' clauses.
But Apple's is also probably better in-tune with off-shore manufacturing, plus it is current - the people required would be there doing it and probably have a couple of apprentices/ underlings being trained as well.
Kodak might have had that data, and experience to send stuff overseas to manufacture in the 80s, but probably most expertise hasn't been passed on, or is lost because of shutting shop practically everywhere around the globe -short or rehiring those people (locating them in the first place) - and getting that in sync with whoever is gonna manufacture, would be a tough task.
The viable model, to me, looks tp be KA getting out of the way and letting someone else revive the film stuff. Someone that has the message of 'we're here to stay!' than looking at the next exit sign. (caveat - I'm not that familiar with their debt situation)

Sent from Tap-a-talk

 

[StoneNYC]

Just to put in a tiny bit of info for input rather, I think that you also have to look at the machinery. FOMA are you going to have issues with their emulsions, sometimes is a little bit of emulsion lift and thoughts on the film that aren't well coated. So if you run into the problem where the quality control factor comes into play and that particular producer could not produce the film properly into the same standards that Kodak because they physically can't do it because their machines aren't designed the same way that Kodak's machines are designed. The extreme example would be as if you were going to have EFKE coat some Kodak film, the Kodak might end up having some EFKEitis issues even though the mixture was Kodak's it wasn't layed down the same way as the specialize Kodak machine can do it.

 

[removed account4]

The difficulty is that it has been repeatedly asserted - by those who understand how film is made - that emulsion making and coating is not just a question of mixing up the correct ingredients in a pot and dumping them in a coating hopper; there is art and craft in the process as well as science, so that Kodak can make (e.g.) Tri-X exactly as it is because they have not only the formula but also the know-how in the workforce.

Accordingly, you could hand the formula to Foma, and you would perhaps get a decent enough film back, but it wouldn't be Tri-X, whatever you chose to put on the boxes. And of course by the same token if you gave the Fomapan200 formula to Kodak, you wouldn't get the same film out of their coaters that come out of Foma's ...

The question remains open whether enough people would really worry enough to not buy the Tri-X rebrand or remake ... but then again Tri-X has been reformulated by Kodak themselves a few times hasn't it? As presumably have most of the films on the market today.

yes, this is true, and i don't think it would be suicide for them KA
they would just have to do some R+D to make it work. and it wouldn't necessarily
be the exact same emulsion and people would have to know and accept that.

its like trying to make a recipe for a cake your grandmother gave you. you have the ingredients and a pan
.
BUT your grandmother's cake was made in the spring + summer when the butter tasted like flowers
but your grandmother's flour was milled differently
but your grandmother's pan was seasoned by 100s of cakes in it
but the eggs were from down the street and tasted different
but the water had different minerals in it
but your "knifeful of baking powder" is different than hers
but you measure everything-else and your grandmother "just knew"
BUT your stove is gas,or electric and has a thermostat and your grandmothers says " 1, 2 3, 4, 5 "
BUT your clock is accurate and your grandmother didn't use a clock

sure your cake would taste OK but it wouldn't be your grandmother's cake, and that's OK

 

[pdeeh]

I disagree, I think,

nope, not a good analogy at all.
even though I haven't worked in film, i've listened carefully to those who have.
on the other hand, I worked closely with manufacturing industry of all sorts , from very high tech to heavy plant manufacture, for about 12 years, and I really think there is a difference between widget making and process engineering. iWhatevers are the former, film the latter

 

[Xmas]

Just to put in a tiny bit of info for input rather, I think that you also have to look at the machinery. FOMA are you going to have issues with their emulsions, sometimes is a little bit of emulsion lift and thoughts on the film that aren't well coated. So if you run into the problem where the quality control factor comes into play and that particular producer could not produce the film properly into the same standards that Kodak because they physically can't do it because their machines aren't designed the same way that Kodak's machines are designed. The extreme example would be as if you were going to have EFKE coat some Kodak film, the Kodak might end up having some EFKEitis issues even though the mixture was Kodak's it wasn't layed down the same way as the specialize Kodak machine can do it.

No sale I've had more problems with Kodak than Foma.
Would I buy a film from KA - no, see previous.
If you don't process properly non prehardened film will fail but that is your fault not Foma's.
Next KA pricing seems irrational the Kodak film I might have bought is x2 times the price of Ilfords equivalent offering.
Am I going to buy from KA at that premium, you guess.

Noel

 

[Alan Johnson]

Not possible to replace a tabular grain film like T-max by a traditional grain film made elsewhere.