New Kodak Film in 2021?

[mshchem]

Canada ceased silver production of coins after 1968. I have a few quarters and dimes dated 67 and 68 that are silver. My mum started collecting them like mad when word got out.

To make it even more confusing there was silver 80% and copper nickel. When I was a kid I bought the 1967 centennial coins, beautiful coins.

 

[wyofilm]

When I was a kid (in the 70s) the paper boy came by to collect when my mother wasn't home. I unknowingly paid the bill with silver coins my mother had in a bowl on the dresser. She wasn't happy.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Perhaps two new films. One a reintroduction of a discontinued film, the other something new.

https://kosmofoto.com/2021/01/kodak...vEhMpui7Z3joQykhUBI-Cc6Yj-vJWFmK1xtkDdQaZKQIQ

I'd take gold 200 in 120 in a heartbeat, though I'm doubtful as outside of Lomography, they haven't had any consumer grade films in 120. BW would be easier to get to 120. I'd take P3200 in 120 in a heartbeat as well, HIE would be nice, as would plus-x. I'd love to see P3200 in 4x5 sheet. That would be so awesome for pinhole. A consumer color 800 speed would be great too, though, again, outside of their single use cameras and Lomography, I've not seen any historically speaking. Just take the 800 speed that goes into one use cameras and put in a standard roll and release it. They actually have a fairly large number of 800 speed color emulsions, I've seen emulsion codes as high as GT-800-5 come through my lab and as low as GT-800-3 and have no doubt that their is a GT-800-2 and 800-1 out there.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Offering a greater variety of 35mm roll lengths would be fairly simple, if retailers believe they would sell.

I doubt any of their color negs in other lengths would sell all that well, except maybe bulk roll. Far and away, 36 exposures outsells pretty much everything else. In consumer film, again, far and away, ColorPlus 200 and Gold 200 are the big sellers. Portra 400 in pro films is number 1, followed by 400H, then Portra 160 and 800. Everything else is a relatively distant slow seller, at least for my sales stats.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Matt, you hit the nail on the head. The prices in the US are so much lower, because there is, practically, no wholesale distribution in the United States, B&H and Adorama etc. buy in such enormous quantities, that, the factories, in order to control fixed costs, make "take or pay" contracts, with volume triggered rebates back to B&H etc. Until recently B&H didn't charge state sales tax, let alone a 20% VAT.
I would be willing to wager that film is one of the most profitable segments of these enormous online retailers. Kodak, gave in years ago and cut out there local dealers, Fuji started it and Kodak followed. Direct sales to anyone that met the volume minimum requirements . I remember when B&H had Kodak films "made overseas for foreign markets" "film produced in the USA and spooled in some foreign land" and "Good, wholesome American made, American spooled". B&H joined the Professional Products Network. Dealers, that displayed the 55° F limit sign. And at the same time sold imported goods priced different, came in different packaging etc.
Freestyle started way back buying odd stuff from everywhere and packaging it. Now they distribute Foma products in North America, have their own line of sundries, chemicals etc and have enough education business that they can survive in a virtual duopoly in the US.
Kodak is selling every bit of Ektachrome they can make, thus Fujichrome Provia F is the inexpensive, B&H must have a take or pay contract with Fuji on Fujichrome . A couple years back B&H had a sale on close dated Fujichrome 35mm it was something like 5 or 6 bucks a roll. I filled a corner of my freezer. Now it's 3 times that. Shouldn't complain because without these kind of chicken or the egg, type of contracts, we may not have Fujichrome at all. i.e. Acros.

I've attempted multiple times to get a Kodak account where I can just buy directly from them, and have been redirected to their "wholesalers". I'd be OK with that, except that their "wholesalers" sell "wholesale" at a higher price than B&H, and many times even places like Unique Photo. I've managed to gain access to better pricing through a number of sellers that have somehow managed to get the product at a lower price, and/or are willing to give me a price break because I tend to buy a lot and list it on Amazon and eBay, but outside of that, I'd really like to get much better pricing, as on Amazon, clearly a large number of sellers are. Either that, or they're not shipping genuine product, or completely losing their shorts. Amazon takes a 15% cut right off the top of the total sale price, and if it's prime, at least an additional $3.18 to pick, pack, and ship it, *per item*. It's not hard to do a little math and figure out what price many amazon retailers *have* to be paying for their film to even break even, much less stay in business.

 

[Bikerider]

Regularly people post that the costs of [fill in whatever brand you think is expensive] is priced high because the manufacturer is greedy. That company does not have a corporate goal to make a huge profit nor drain your bank account, they are covering their costs so that they can stay in business. The companies are working on very thin profit margins. It helps no one when someone claims that the prices are "outrageous". If one finds a product that costs less, than buy it but do not complain the company has priced the film to financially ruin anyone. If you have irrefutable proof that any company is raising prices to only line its pockets, then come forward and post it, but do not post statements like "The cost of TriX is just one step away from pricing itself out of the market." unless you can prove it.

I can actually say what I wish which is my opinion, yours is different. If you disagree with MY opinion, then walk away and accept others have different opinion to your self. That is exactly what I am going to do. As a final note look at the price of other manufacturers charge for similar materials. Ilford are doing quite well thank you.

 

[Bikerider]

I doubt any of their color negs in other lengths would sell all that well, except maybe bulk roll. Far and away, 36 exposures outsells pretty much everything else. In consumer film, again, far and away, ColorPlus 200 and Gold 200 are the big sellers. Portra 400 in pro films is number 1, followed by 400H, then Portra 160 and 800. Everything else is a relatively distant slow seller, at least for my sales stats.

I used to buy Agfa C41 film in a 30m bulk roll and when they discontinued making film it disappeared. For me it was far more convenient to load a cassette with whatever length I wished (up to 35 exp) Also, vast quantities of the 30m rolls were sold in UK to local authorities for use in the roadside speed cameras. When the supply dried up, they went over to digital.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

I can actually say what I wish which is my opinion, yours is different. If you disagree with MY opinion, then walk away and accept others have different opinion to your self. That is exactly what I am going to do. As a final note look at the price of other manufacturers charge for similar materials. Ilford are doing quite well thank you.

Ilford does not make the same products, or have the same cost structure. They do tend to make better financial decisions than Kodak, and do tend to run a tighter ship financially speaking, but at the end of the day, they are not Kodak, or have Kodak's baseline cost just to keep the doors open.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I'd take gold 200 in 120 in a heartbeat, though I'm doubtful as outside of Lomography, they haven't had any consumer grade films in 120. BW would be easier to get to 120. I'd take P3200 in 120 in a heartbeat as well, HIE would be nice, as would plus-x. I'd love to see P3200 in 4x5 sheet. That would be so awesome for pinhole. A consumer color 800 speed would be great too, though, again, outside of their single use cameras and Lomography, I've not seen any historically speaking. Just take the 800 speed that goes into one use cameras and put in a standard roll and release it. They actually have a fairly large number of 800 speed color emulsions, I've seen emulsion codes as high as GT-800-5 come through my lab and as low as GT-800-3 and have no doubt that their is a GT-800-2 and 800-1 out there.

Gold 100 & 200 were available in 120 - but I don't know if they made the transition over to B-38. There are apparently a number of major technological issues with getting p3200 to work in 120 - from what I've read, it was seen as a surprise that Ilford were able to get 120 Delta 3200 to work - and even then, they were only able to do so profitably by using the same master rolls for 135 and 120 (this should make it very clear as to why sheet Delta 3200 and p3200 are very unlikely). It may well be that doing so with p3200 causes physical damage to the emulsion. HIE is plausible - it made the transition over to B-38, but I suspect that the sensitising dyes would make it very very expensive today and short lived on the shelf - would you pay USD 20+ for a roll?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

To make it even more confusing there was silver 80% and copper nickel. When I was a kid I bought the 1967 centennial coins, beautiful coins.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

My mum has a bunch of those!

 

[Anon Ymous]

... HIE is plausible - it made the transition over to B-38, but I suspect that the sensitising dyes would make it very very expensive today and short lived on the shelf - would you pay USD 20+ for a roll?

People pay > 20€ for Velvia 50 135, so...

 

[George Mann]

People pay > 20€ for Velvia 50 135, so...

Here in the US, the total cost of shooting slide film (developed and mounted) is cheaper than shooting negatives.

 

[railwayman3]

zebra stripes on Kodachrome indicated K14, while K12 was still in circulation. the early C-41 kodacolor II also had zebra stripes to help sort it from the C22 Kodacolor X. Kodak did all sorts of things like that to help get the right film on the right line.

Process included or not was indicated by the edge print. black lettering on a coloured background, or colored lettering on a black background. I think it was the black lettering was the NON included. and of course the ' code would indicate which region would have to pay the shot for processing.

I can't really remember myself, but my Dad told me that, in the early 1970's there was a major strike at the UK Kodak Kodachrome lab (P.O. Box 14, Hemel Hempstead), which lasted several months. Almost all Kodachrome was sold process-paid here in the UK at that time, and Kodak advised that films should be posted direct to any of their European labs, and this worked quite well. I remember my Dad saying that he tried several different labs, France, Germany, Austria, etc., and he thought the continental processing was better than the UK work ! Maybe wishful thinking, although around the same time the UK lab did have some issues with scratches, blue spots, etc.

 

[dutchsteammachine]

The Super 8 Camera and the Super 8 Processing Service are Eastman Kodak and not Kodak Alaris things though. In terms of the camera, the pandemic did quite a bit there, and we actually had the prototype on hands early this year. As far as I understand the pandemic halted the mass production of the camera since the prototypes were made in the EU and the final camera will be made in the US. In terms of E6 chemistry, I figure the Tetenal bancrupcy and the MBO caused an issue there too, since Kokak Alaris chemistry isn´t made by Kodak but several other manufacturers and since the sale of the paper and photochemicals division not even their thing anymore.

Hold up... we haven't heard about the elusive new S8 camera for years. Pretty much everyone accepts it as something that died... silently. Kodak just stopped talking about it. Last thing I saw were some skateboard videos from 2018 I think.

Can you tell us anymore at all? How do they perform? Is the frame rate changeable? Does it have crystal sync? How do they feel in the hand. Pricing? Between 5-10k?

 

[Agulliver]

The super 8 camera is still listed on their web page and as recently as 2018 there were prototypes being tested in the wild. It is plausible that the pandemic halted work on this, as Kodak weren't actually manufacturing it themselves. Wasn't it Logmar?

We do need a basic understanding of how difficult or easy, and how costly, it might be to do certain things at the Kodak factory.....because there's little point speculating about products which would simply be far too difficult to introduce. Making an existing 35mm product work as 120 isn't simply a case of slitting the same material wider. Making 220 where a product exists in 120 isn't as easy as many of us once thought.

All that said, there is a glaring hole or two in Kodak's current portfolio.

No consumer grade 120 colour film. Though the Lomography 100, 400 and 800 are believed to be Kodak-derived, Kodak/Alaris themselves don't offer any Kodak branded consumer grade 120 film. With C41 sales so great that both Kodak and Fuji cannot keep up, and demand increasing for 120 for several types of user, this would make sense. I personally wouldn't be buying Gold but I can see lots of people would buy it. I'd prefer Color Plus but I reckon Gold is more likely....if they're able to ramp up production sufficiently to keep up with demand for existing products.

Medium/low speed traditional B&W films. Ilford and Foma seem to rule the roost here with Adox and perhaps Ferrania plugging some niche gaps nicely. But that would still leave a market if Kodak decided to bring back Plus-X....which seems somewhat more likely than Panatomic X though there is more of a gap in the market for low speed film under 50ASA. I've read that Panatomic-X had some ingredients which would make it difficult to make now...so a reformulation would be required.

High speed slide film. Would Ektachrome 200 or 400 be viable? There certainly appears to be a small but extant market.

True IR film...I've read that HIE was only possible to produce because the US military used to buy so much of it. So perhaps it's technically feasible to manufacture it, the cost would be high. However there seems to be a niche market of people who would pay 20 dollarpounds per roll. Equally if they do bring HIE back at 20 per roll, I expect people to whine that it's not 5.99.

We're told one new product and one re-introduction. A new product could something like P3200 in 120 because while P3200 itself isn't new, it's never been available in 120 before. However that is likely down to the difficulty in producing it. If it were easy, Ilford wouldn't be praised so much for getting D3200 to work in 120 and Kodak would have had P3200 120 in the past. But perhaps they've cracked it this time around? I can't really think of anything realistic that we haven't seen before. We're not getting Kodachrome III. And we've had both low and high speed Ektachrome films before.

My personal wish would be for 100 foot rolls of Color Plus 35mm at a reasonable price....but that's almost as unlikely as Kodachrome. So I am going to predict that the "reintroduced" product is either Gold in 120 or Plus-X across a range of formats. The "new" film could be P3200 in 120.

Exciting times when Kodak are even considering something new. We did get Ektachrome and P3200 back....when both seemed lost causes.

 

[Lachlan Young]

We do need a basic understanding of how difficult or easy, and how costly, it might be to do certain things at the Kodak factory.

Realistically, if it went before 1990, no chance. 2000, highly unlikely. Anything withdrawn from 2002-5 onwards is about the feasibility limit for re-introduction as that seems to have been the point by which everything seems to have transferred over to current technology compatible with B38.

which seems somewhat more likely than Panatomic X

I think people need to bin their nostalgia for FX - it went 30+ years ago - long before the current Kodak emulsion manufacturing system came online, as opposed to 125PX and HIE which transferred to B38 in the early 2000's. FX would need to be re-engineered from the ground up - which is a pointless endeavour. Frankly, if people just bothered themselves to introduce the most marginal basics of process and exposure control, they'd realise that TMax 100 can do the same things, better.

True IR film...I've read that HIE was only possible to produce because the US military used to buy so much of it.

No, I think that's EIR you're thinking of - which continued to use E-4 (and then AR-5) for a long time, likely because the costs of rebuilding it were greater than making an occasional batch with specific environmental exemptions on national security grounds.

 

[dutchsteammachine]

You guys talking about Aerochrome? People pay over 100 USD for unexposed rolls on eBay.

From the 80s

 

[MultiFormat Shooter]

Infrared Ektachrome (EIR), with the data sheet linked here, was process E-6 and made well in to the 2000's (data sheet is from Sept. 2005). I really wish they'd bring it back, and yes, I know it wouldn't be cheap.

While we're wishing, a new Ektachrome 400 would be amazing, too.

 

[dutchsteammachine]

I think the biggest gap in the market right now are consumer 120 films and a high-speed slide film.


Those would really be unique if kodak released them! A cheaper starter format for 120 shooters, and 200/400 speed slide film would allow positive photos that were not possible for some time.


Yet an other slow-speed b/w film? yawn. Anyone and their mother can make those.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Infrared Ektachrome (EIR), with the data sheet linked here, was process E-6 and made well in to the 2000's (data sheet is from Sept. 2005). I really wish they'd bring it back, and yes, I know it wouldn't be cheap.

E-6 seems to have been a sort-of cross process for last generation EIR - from what I've seen of some of the Aerochrome documentation, AR-5 may well have used CD-4 rather than CD-3 - the sell sheets speak at length of how compatible it was with AN-6/ C-41 processing.

 

[halfaman]

Realistically, if it went before 1990, no chance. 2000, highly unlikely. Anything withdrawn from 2002-5 onwards is about the feasibility limit for re-introduction as that seems to have been the point by which everything seems to have transferred over to current technology compatible with B38.

Then I would like the come back of "NC" and "VC" lines for Portra. New unified Portra films are a good compromise of both but I miss the saturation of Porta 160 VC and the soft touch of 400 VC. Unlikely to happen but this is a new wish list for Santa, right?

I really miss more some Fuji color films than any of Kodak, like Reala (my most desired come back film) or 400X (best slide film ever for me).

 

[Lachlan Young]

Then I would like the come back of "NC" and "VC" lines for Portra. New unified Portra films are a good compromise of both but I miss the saturation of Porta 160 VC and the soft touch of 400 VC. Unlikely to happen but this is a new wish list for Santa, right?

I really miss more some Fuji color films than any of Kodak, like Reala (my most desired come back film) or 400X (best slide film ever for me).

Can't say I'd agree on the return of VC films - I think Ektar does the same sort of thing better.

If Fuji want to reintroduce anything, they could bring back a 120 format Superia. Never been terribly keen on their pro neg films - they try too hard to be 'neutral' under too many conditions, & then distort certain specific colours in ways that take more effort to correct.

Something relatively easy to re-manufacture, but probably way too low market demand (unless Adox are feeling particularly quixotic) would be a Pan-Matrix film for dye transfer prints from colour negs.

 

[p81]

All is highly speculative, but if I’d have a look on the comparator Fuji, they have lot more slidefilms as Kodak have, so what would you do as a manager? There are no consumer negativefilms in 120, I would go for it.
The mediumformat is growing well at the moment, Portra is running very well, so I would go for a cheaper consumer film in 120, maybe Gold 200, as the emulsion is available in amounts of 135, they just have to cut it in an other format and I would go for a new slidefilm.

 

[Agulliver]

I'd like Portra NC back....but I can live with the current Portra and Ektar. I suppose another gap would be a 400 speed film with the colour palette of Ektar 100.

THanks to Lachlan for some info on why pre-2000 films are much less likely than those which survived into the 21st century.

Whatever it is, EK and KA must feel there's a market sufficient to claw back what will likely be considerable R&D costs and continuing long term sales. They got it right big time with Ektachrome. C41 films seem to be the big sellers in the last two years. What they could do with plus-x that Ilford aren't doing with FP4+ is make cine film.

Regarding films that EK already make in 135, I understand it isn't just a case of cutting them to a different width to make them in 120 or sheet formats.

I know....I know.....it's Kodachrome in 126 cartridges!