New Kodak C41 Chemicals / Question

[blee1996]

So, looking at the SDS for each product on Cinestill website,
-The Bleach III Replenisher (2x10L) (both Parts A and B) are identical to the Bleach (Parts A and B) in the 5L C41 Kit (no starter in the kit)
-The LU LORR Developer Replenisher (4x10L) (Parts A, B and C) are identical to the Developer (Parts A, B and C) in the 5L C41 Kit (the kit does not have the chemicals from the starter in it)
-The Fixer and Replenisher is identical to the Fixer in the 5L C41 Kit

So it almost seems like the new Kit they're selling does NOT actually have any of the starters included...

Interesting discovery! I will have to run 16 rolls through 1L stock solution (with time compensation) and see if the results are consistent enough. I have no complaints with Bellini kit using the same regime.

 

[MattKing]

Starter isn't necessary if you wish to use replenisher with already seasoned working strength developer.
The two methods of seasoning working strength developer are:
1) develop the right amount of film in it; or
2) add Starter to it.
My first suggestions were oriented toward the first method.
But it is correct to observe that you need reasonable volumes to make it work.

 

[blee1996]

I'm a bit confused. So let me give a concrete example to see if I understand correctly.

if I bought the 5L "new" Kodak kit, can I do this in terms of replenishing?

1) I mix all 5L of color developer, pack them into 5 bags of 1L each (A, B, C, D, E). I designate bag E as replenisher.
2) I use bag A to develop 3 rolls of film in a Paterson 1L tank with hand agitation
3) I discard 200mL* from bag A, and then add 200mL fresh developers from Bag E as replenisher.

(200mL is just a random number, I don't know what should be correct amount)

Would the above work for 1L small tank development to get consistent results?

 

[brbo]

I'm a bit confused. So let me give a concrete example to see if I understand correctly.

if I bought the 5L "new" Kodak kit, can I do this in terms of replenishing?

1) I mix all 5L of color developer, pack them into 5 bags of 1L each (A, B, C, D, E). I designate bag E as replenisher.
2) I use bag A to develop 3 rolls of film in a Paterson 1L tank with hand agitation
3) I discard 200mL* from bag A, and then add 200mL fresh developers from Bag E as replenisher.

(200mL is just a random number, I don't know what should be correct amount)

Would the above work for 1L small tank development to get consistent results?

You are describing a "self replenished" regime which is not the same as standard replenishment.

I did use one of my 5L kits in that regime recently. My results were OK (prints and scans), but I don't have controls strips to check. I hoped somebody would comment on the "self replenished" method in that thread, but alas...

So, looking at the SDS for each product on Cinestill website...

Again, not a chemist or one that would know much about SDSs, but I don't think you can assume two solutions to be the same if they have the same SDS. Someone here will surely know more and explain it here once more with more authority.

 

[koraks]

I don't think you can assume two solutions to be the same if they have the same SDS.

This is correct; the degrees of freedom in a typical SDS are quite large. It's entirely possible that for a c41 developer, the ready to use solution and the replenisher could "look" the same judging only by the SDS

 

[mshchem]

I'm a bit confused. So let me give a concrete example to see if I understand correctly.

if I bought the 5L "new" Kodak kit, can I do this in terms of replenishing?

1) I mix all 5L of color developer, pack them into 5 bags of 1L each (A, B, C, D, E). I designate bag E as replenisher.
2) I use bag A to develop 3 rolls of film in a Paterson 1L tank with hand agitation
3) I discard 200mL* from bag A, and then add 200mL fresh developers from Bag E as replenisher.

(200mL is just a random number, I don't know what should be correct amount)

Would the above work for 1L small tank development to get consistent results?

No, the solution you describe is developer not the more concentrated and bromide free developer replenisher

 

[mshchem]

And of course there's bleach starter

 

[mshchem]

The C-41 RA Bleach, IIRC 1 min.

 

[mshchem]

Process C-41RA is what allows minilabs to develop in 7 1/2 minutes

 

[n8xland111]

No, the solution you describe is developer not the more concentrated and bromide free developer replenisher

The developer that comes in the 5L kit we’re discussing does NOT have bromide in it.

I disagree with the SDS’s matching not meaning anything. They must list all chemicals in the SDS. And the developer we get with the kit matches the regular developer replenisher. Zero bromide in it whatsoever. I think they’re just giving us replenisher.

 

[n8xland111]

This is correct; the degrees of freedom in a typical SDS are quite large. It's entirely possible that for a c41 developer, the ready to use solution and the replenisher could "look" the same judging only by the SDS

Im being redundant in my last two comments, lol

But I’ll say this, the developer in our 5L kit does not have any bromides in it. It would have to say that in the SDS. The SDS for starter lists the specific bromide that’s in it.
Our developer lacks it. My belief is that they’re giving us standard developer replenisher. And the amounts align with the normal developer, not the LORR. Although the chemicals are the same between the two.

I’m gonna test my theory here in a few weeks when I get my replenisher and starter. I’ll do half a roll with the replenisher alone, and half with the starter added.

I’ll update!
I’m going to Montenegro for four weeks Sunday, but I’ll do the rest when I get back and have a ton of film to develop

 

[MattKing]

They must list all chemicals in the SDS.

Actually, no.
SDS requirements vary from country to country, and in many/most they don't require listing everything.
For example, when was the last time you saw water listed on an MSDS?
They are oriented toward safety concerns, and compliance relates to individual country safety concerns, as well as threshold issues.
It is often interesting to compare for example, the SDS for Australia with one for the USA or Canada.
By the way, the MSDS for Part A of the developer includes this:

 

[mshchem]

The developer that comes in the 5L kit we’re discussing does NOT have bromide in it.

I disagree with the SDS’s matching not meaning anything. They must list all chemicals in the SDS. And the developer we get with the kit matches the regular developer replenisher. Zero bromide in it whatsoever. I think they’re just giving us replenisher.

Hmm, these folks have been making color chemistry for 50 years. It would surprise me if the chemistry being sold as a kit was straight replenisher.

 

[mshchem]

Actually, no.
SDS requirements vary from country to country, and in many/most they don't require listing everything.
For example, when was the last time you saw water listed on an MSDS?
They are oriented toward safety concerns, and compliance relates to individual country safety concerns, as well as threshold issues.
It is often interesting to compare for example, the SDS for Australia with one for the USA or Canada.
By the way, the MSDS for Part A of the developer includes this:
View attachment 377849

Well done Matt.

 

[n8xland111]

Well done Matt.

Editing: Looks like they did finally post the SDS for our kit and it does show that. That’s good
But all that does is make it match the developer replenisher exactly then.

I.e. there is no trace of actual starter in our kit developer. It’s just replenisher.

 

[n8xland111]

Editing: Looks like they did finally post the SDS for our kit and it does show that. That’s good
But all that does is make it match the developer replenisher exactly then.

I.e. there is no trace of actual starter in our kit developer. It’s just replenisher.

Actually, no.
SDS requirements vary from country to country, and in many/most they don't require listing everything.
For example, when was the last time you saw water listed on an MSDS?
They are oriented toward safety concerns, and compliance relates to individual country safety concerns, as well as threshold issues.
It is often interesting to compare for example, the SDS for Australia with one for the USA or Canada.
By the way, the MSDS for Part A of the developer includes this:
View attachment 377849

yeah actually if you read the top of the SDS for our kit, they literally call it Developer Replenisher. They’re not giving us starter.
So I believe I just wasted $115 on starter.

 

[n8xland111]

yeah actually if you read the top of the SDS for our kit, they literally call it Developer Replenisher. They’re not giving us starter.
So I believe I just wasted $115 on starter.

OR
Maybe it will be worth it if my results with the developer+starter are way better than my results with the kit! Which, frankly, are no better than cinestills $30 kit.

 

[mshchem]

The SDS is required to ship UPS, doesn't surprise me that they are using the same sheet. Cinestill is almost certainly been using Photosys as a supplier in the past.

With starter you can formulate proper working solution.

If you want to use bulk chemistry it's going to mean buying a crapload (technical term) of chemistry that you will never use.

This is why kits are available, just dilute and use.

Kodak kit, Adox kit. Easy peezy!

 

[n8xland111]

The SDS is required to ship UPS, doesn't surprise me that they are using the same sheet. Cinestill is almost certainly been using Photosys as a supplier in the past.

With starter you can formulate proper working solution.

If you want to use bulk chemistry it's going to mean buying a crapload (technical term) of chemistry that you will never use.

This is why kits are available, just dilute and use.

Kodak kit, Adox kit. Easy peezy!

Well the whole point of this thread was about Kodaks suggestion to use developer one-shot. If you do as they suggest, I’ll use the developer portion of that kit in two-three weeks. And have a crapton of bleach and fixer left over.
So my whole goal was to determine what developer to buy in bulk so I can get the most out of the kit+additional developer.

So I think that’s solved! get the replenisher (and starter if you want) and shoot away.

 

[brbo]

I'm afraid that starter will not be optional, even though you might think you have all the "evidence" to the contrary.

PhotoSys and Fuji know what they are doing and if they are supplying minilabs with starter in order to prepare proper tank solutions, you can safely assume that it is also needed for home one-shot development.

 

[koraks]

My belief is that they’re giving us standard developer replenisher.

If you develop your negatives in a replenisher without starter, you'll get an enormous gamma boost, color shift, coarse grain etc. If you then scan your negatives, you may never really notice since the scanning process easily compensates for the color shift and contrast boost. You may end up believing you're doing OK, just that the film is a little grainy. Then if you decide one day you're going to optically print some of those negatives, you're in deep trouble.

So believe whatever you want, but the reasoning that you can't tell the difference based on the MSDS meaning that there IS no difference is really not very sensible.

 

[mshchem]

Several years ago, I bet I spent at least 8 hours trying everything to try and understand what was causing a brown cast on RA-4 color prints. I thought it was bad paper, bad paper safe, I went around covering all the tiny LED lights (smoke alarm, etc). I mixed up all new chemistry, different processors........Finally I sat down and I realized I hadn't been adding my starter!

Instantly it was resolved. I have a couple different tube or drum processors, everything one shot. So the developer without some restrainer (starter) added was way over active.

Follow the instructions (and don't forget)

 

[brbo]

I got away with not using a starter with Kodak RA-4 LORR developer replenisher (but I used that replenisher diluted 1:1). With Fuji RA-4 chemistry there was no way, horrible green/cyan cast. But RA-4 is basically developed to completion. I don't see a way you could produce a C-41 negative within specifications with C-41 dev. replenisher without a starter.

 

[MattKing]

So I think that’s solved! get the replenisher (and starter if you want) and shoot away.

That is the simplest way.
But the developer in the kit is essentially the right amount of "replenisher" plus the right amount of starter, all mixed together.
So you can use the kit to start your replenishment regime, and just continue it thereafter.
Each film you develop adds bromide and partially exhausts the developer activity. Each replenishment discards the excess bromide - you start by discarding a bit - and adds the needed activity.

 

[Steven Lee]

I wish film manufacturers had reference patches similar to control strips on all their roll films, at the end of a roll. It would have simplified troubleshooting development issues, even without a densitometer.