New Kodak C41 Chemicals / Question

[n8xland111]

Hey Folks!

Question on Kodak Chems / home development.

Im using the new (rebranded Flexicolor?) Kodak c41 kit. They say not to reuse the developer, and I kind of think I agree now…maybe... I got weird colors on my third round of development with the same developer. (The photos below are heavily color corrected.) I’m not sure if I just had to correct it a lot because it was blue hour and the white balance was different than daylight, or if the developer was causing shifts. I had developed about 8 rolls already in that 1.5L. These were rolls 9-11.

Anyway, they say you can reuse the bleach and fixer quite a bit. However, using the developer one shot is going to make the $100 kit go by very fast. (5L kit: 2 rolls per 500mL in a Jobo (inversion method) = 20 rolls per kit. Which is $5 a roll. That’s not saving you much from going to a lab.)

So I’m purchasing the LORR developer replenisher to make more developer. The store told me I don’t need starter, but everything I read says you need it if you’re not using a replenished system.

They only sell starter in mass quantities, just like the replenisher, but you only need a little bit of starter.

QUESTIONs:
Does anyone use the developer replenisher(LORR) without a starter added? How does it work?

Is anyone reusing the new Kodak c41 developer successfully?

And is anyone else in this same situation and need to purchase starter, but not in the quantity they sell it in? I’d love to split it.

THOUGHTS?!

 

[mshchem]

I always use starters. One thing is the developer replenisher can be used indefinitely to replenish your developer from the kit.

If you want starter from Cinestill they want you to buy 6 x 1L which is enough starter for the next 100 years. Maybe Unique or someone still sells individual bottles of starters
.
Of course with C-41 you could run a couple rolls through to season your developer.
Just remember that the replenisher should be diluted and have starter added. IIRC your 10L of replenisher will yield somewhere in the neighborhood of 12.5 liters of developer (ie "tank solution ")

Of course the clearest directions for mixing the developer (from replenisher, water, and starter) is printed on the starter bottles.

I just bought the package of 4 x10 L of LORR Flexicolor Developer Replenisher from Cinestill. It was 4 sets of 3 bottles (A,B,C) no instructions other than how to mix the replenisher.

Replenisher is what is required by minilabs and other automated processors. The only time Developer is required is when the developer tank is tossed and a new "tank" is mixed up from scratch.

 

[MattKing]

The only time Developer is required is when the developer tank is tossed and a new "tank" is mixed up from scratch.

I expect you meant to say that the only time Starter is required ...
To the OP @n8xland111 , welcome to Photrio.
Fresh Replenisher + Starter = seasoned developer.
Seasoned developer can be used essentially indefinitely if you both use it and replenish it by discarding a small portion regularly, and make up the volume regularly with replenisher.
If you can't get Starter in practical quantities, just use the developer from your kit an appropriate amount, and then start replenishing it with replenisher.
I'd suggest that you mix up all the developer, and then use it to half its projected capacity - 1 roll per 500 ml, using your figures.
Then start re-using and replenishing that already partially used developer.
You might see some variability at the start, until your seasoned working strength seasoned developer stabilizes.

 

[mshchem]

I expect you meant to say that the only time Starter is required ...
To the OP @n8xland111 , welcome to Photrio.
Fresh Replenisher + Starter = seasoned developer.
Seasoned developer can be used essentially indefinitely if you both use it and replenish it by discarding a small portion regularly, and make up the volume regularly with replenisher.
If you can't get Starter in practical quantities, just use the developer from your kit an appropriate amount, and then start replenishing it with replenisher.
I'd suggest that you mix up all the developer, and then use it to half its projected capacity - 1 roll per 500 ml, using your figures.
Then start re-using and replenishing that already partially used developer.
You might see some variability at the start, until your seasoned working strength seasoned developer stabilizes.

The only time that a lab mixes Developer (actual Tank Solution) is when they drain and toss out the processor solutions. This is why a well run minilab rarely, very rarely, uses starter. As they keep the machine running and in control for months or even years without needing to make up fresh Developer (and needed a wee bit of starter).

Developer replenisher is mixed up and put in the replenisher tank that feeds the working tanks automatically.

I use a Jobo processor these days so for C-41 I use the developer one shot. I replenish the bleach, and I use the fixer a couple times then toss.

 

[MattKing]

The only time that a lab mixes Developer (actual Tank Solution) is when they drain and toss out the processor solutions. This is why a well run minilab rarely, very rarely, uses starter. As they keep the machine running and in control for months or even years without needing to make up fresh Developer (and needed a wee bit of starter).

Agreed.
The OP has one of those kits where the "developer" that comes with it is intended for one-shot use - ie has already been "seasoned".
What I suggested would season it a bit more.
They could probably get similar (if slightly more active initial) results if they just used that from the factory seasoned mix as is and start replenishing it right from first use.

 

[blee1996]

To OP: did you increase the color developer time after several rolls to compensate? For example: Bellini C41 kit, 1L work solution can be reused for up to 16 rolls of 135 film. And in my experience, it is true.

I have not mixed the Kodak 5L chemistry yet, was planning to do it this week.

 

[mshchem]

 

[mshchem]

Above is the label from my bottle of starter
763ml of replenisher, 30ml of starter and 207 ml of water prepares fresh working developer.

 

[n8xland111]

To OP: did you increase the color developer time after several rolls to compensate? For example: Bellini C41 kit, 1L work solution can be reused for up to 16 rolls of 135 film. And in my experience, it is true.

View attachment 377664

I have not mixed the Kodak 5L chemistry yet, was planning to do it this week.

Yes I did! My test today came out actually consistent with fresh developer. I’m thinking the major color shift came from shooting at blue hour. But I figured I’d still ask the question because I’m curious how I can use the replenisher. And it sounds like I can just start replenishing my current developer.

 

[n8xland111]

Agreed.
The OP has one of those kits where the "developer" that comes with it is intended for one-shot use - ie has already been "seasoned".
What I suggested would season it a bit more.
They could probably get similar (if slightly more active initial) results if they just used that from the factory seasoned mix as is and start replenishing it right from first use.

Awesome! So I should be able to basically just use the 40L replenisher to start replenishing my developer that came with the kit.
By the way, the developer that came with the kit doesn’t have any bromides in it. I thought that’s what starter would add?
In fact, the SDS for the LORR 40L replenisher actually matches the developer that comes with the kit, which doesn’t have a specific starter that you add.

How would that replenishing look? For Jobo (inversion method) processing.

 

[n8xland111]

I always use starters. One thing is the developer replenisher can be used indefinitely to replenish your developer from the kit.

If you want starter from Cinestill they want you to buy 6 x 1L which is enough starter for the next 100 years. Maybe Unique or someone still sells individual bottles of starters
.
Of course with C-41 you could run a couple rolls through to season your developer.
Just remember that the replenisher should be diluted and have starter added. IIRC your 10L of replenisher will yield somewhere in the neighborhood of 12.5 liters of developer (ie "tank solution ")

Of course the clearest directions for mixing the developer (from replenisher, water, and starter) is printed on the starter bottles.

I just bought the package of 4 x10 L of LORR Flexicolor Developer Replenisher from Cinestill. It was 4 sets of 3 bottles (A,B,C) no instructions other than how to mix the replenisher.

Replenisher is what is required by minilabs and other automated processors. The only time Developer is required is when the developer tank is tossed and a new "tank" is mixed up from scratch.

Yeah I don’t think that purchasing the starter is practical. But I did get the LORR replenisher like you did. I guess I’ll replenish my developer that came in my kit. Did you get the kit too?

 

[n8xland111]

View attachment 377667View attachment 377667

Is that the new starter that cinestill is selling 6x1L? Is it 6x 1 liter bottles of concentrate? Or are they small bottles that you mix with water to make 1L of starter?

 

[brbo]

Those are 6 x 1L of concentrate, sooo... a lot and heavy.

Fuji also sells their C-41 starter in 6x1L kit. It must be an internal industry-wide joke to mess with us home users

As for starting your home C-41 replenished regime with 1.5L of working strength developer and replenishing that... good luck. You WILL need it. Replenished systems were never designed to use such a low volume of working solution and even then replenished systems need to be checked and adjusted regularly.

You'd be way better off (cheaper and simpler) by just biting the bullet. Buy that starter (it's a once in a lifetime purchase), mix working (tank) solution from replenisher + starter + water. Then you can use that either one-shot or reuse with extending time for each run - same as you do now.

 

[n8xland111]

Those are 6 x 1L of concentrate, sooo... a lot and heavy.

Fuji also sells their C-41 starter in 6x1L kit. It must be an internal industry-wide joke to mess with us home users

As for starting your home C-41 replenished regime with 1.5L of working strength developer and replenishing that... good luck. You WILL need it. Replenished systems were never designed to use such a low volume of working solution and even then replenished systems need to be checked and adjusted regularly.

You'd be way better off (cheaper and simpler) by just biting the bullet. Buy that starter (it's a once in a lifetime purchase), mix working (tank) solution from replenisher + starter + water. Then you can use that either one-shot or reuse with extending time for each run - same as you do now.

Okay cool. That’s likely the comment I needed.
So it’s 6 full liters of concentrate.
Which would definitely be once in a lifetime at 30mL per Liter use. But, what about expirations? How long do the unopened bottles last? If it’s 1-2 years, I’m totally okay spending 50$ a year on starter. If it lasts longer, great.
Any experience?

 

[brbo]

I've had an opened bottle of RA-4 starter for about 2-3 years. I don't worry too much about unopened ones I'm not a chemist, but people say starters last a loooong time.

 

[n8xland111]

I've had an opened bottle of RA-4 starter for about 2-3 years. I don't worry too much about unopened ones I'm not a chemist, but people say starters last a loooong time.

Well that’s cool! I’d imagine so. I do have a BS in chemistry! But I would have no idea lol. We’ll find out.

Do you know much about the bleach? I hear the same debate about whether you need a starter for bleach or just need the replenisher.

 

[brbo]

Unfortunately, no.

Previously I was buying 5L C-41 kits and since I was using developer one-shot (but reused bleach and fixer) I ended up with a few unopened bleach and fixer bottles that I'm now working through. So, so far I've only bought developer replenisher and starter.

 

[n8xland111]

Unfortunately, no.

Previously I was buying 5L C-41 kits and since I was using developer one-shot (but reused bleach and fixer) I ended up with a few unopened bleach and fixer bottles that I'm now working through. So, so far I've only bought developer replenisher and starter.

Okay you’re doing exactly what I’m doing. How long have you used your bleach and fixed before mixing up a new batch?

Thanks for the time by the way!

 

[radialMelt]

I expect you meant to say that the only time Starter is required ...
To the OP @n8xland111 , welcome to Photrio.
Fresh Replenisher + Starter = seasoned developer.
Seasoned developer can be used essentially indefinitely if you both use it and replenish it by discarding a small portion regularly, and make up the volume regularly with replenisher.
If you can't get Starter in practical quantities, just use the developer from your kit an appropriate amount, and then start replenishing it with replenisher.
I'd suggest that you mix up all the developer, and then use it to half its projected capacity - 1 roll per 500 ml, using your figures.
Then start re-using and replenishing that already partially used developer.
You might see some variability at the start, until your seasoned working strength seasoned developer stabilizes.

Matt, are you processing C41 in a manual inversion tank (i.e., Patterson)? If so, are you replenishing your developer working solution as described above? No issues with this? What quantity of replenisher are you using to replenish your working solution?

I don't have a ton of experience, but my experiments with replenishing my 1L of developer used in a Patterson tank has resulted in inconsistencies. So much so that I am considering just running the developer one-shot style. The results from a freshly mixed working solution are so much better than the results with my replenished solution.

Any input is appreciated!

 

[n8xland111]

Matt, are you processing C41 in a manual inversion tank (i.e., Patterson)? If so, are you replenishing your developer working solution as described above? No issues with this? What quantity of replenisher are you using to replenish your working solution?

I don't have a ton of experience, but my experiments with replenishing my 1L of developer used in a Patterson tank has resulted in inconsistencies. So much so that I am considering just running the developer one-shot style. The results from a freshly mixed working solution are so much better than the results with my replenished solution.

Any input is appreciated!

Hey radialMelt,

So far what I’ve taken away from this whole thread is
1-use the developer one shot (I learned that on my own, see original post) or twice. But not much more.
2-buy the lorr replenisher (comes in 40L) which will last a while
3- you will actually need the starter, even though it comes in an ungodly amount (6x 1L at a time) and you only need 30mL per 1L of developer you make.
4- reuse the bleach and fixer that come in the 5L kit. I make them in batches of 1.66L so I have two more batches of each that I can make.

If you do want to go that route, I’m looking for someone to split the starter with!

 

[radialMelt]

Hey radialMelt,

So far what I’ve taken away from this whole thread is
1-use the developer one shot (I learned that on my own, see original post) or twice. But not much more.
2-buy the lorr replenisher (comes in 40L) which will last a while
3- you will actually need the starter, even though it comes in an ungodly amount (6x 1L at a time) and you only need 30mL per 1L of developer you make.
4- reuse the bleach and fixer that come in the 5L kit. I make them in batches of 1.66L so I have two more batches of each that I can make.

If you do want to go that route, I’m looking for someone to split the starter with!

Hehe thanks for the offer but I'm already setup for chems etc. Been doing this for the past year or so, with Flexicolor chems. Still refining the process however, hence the question of replenish vs one-shot.

By the way there's a few very helpful threads on here if you wish to get into using the Flexicolor chemistry in small tanks. Good luck!

 

[n8xland111]

Hehe thanks for the offer but I'm already setup for chems etc. Been doing this for the past year or so, with Flexicolor chems. Still refining the process however, hence the question of replenish vs one-shot.

By the way there's a few very helpful threads on here if you wish to get into using the Flexicolor chemistry in small tanks. Good luck!

Thought I’d offer! 6L is a crap ton.
With the original flexicolor, didnt they sell everything in much smaller amounts than the new chems that they sell now?

 

[radialMelt]

Thought I’d offer! 6L is a crap ton.
With the original flexicolor, didnt they sell everything in much smaller amounts than the new chems that they sell now?

Seems that way yeah. This is what I bought:

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodakc41devstarterlorr12l6601074

Says discontinued unfortunately. I haven't kept up on the changes to the product offerings.

 

[brbo]

Okay you’re doing exactly what I’m doing. How long have you used your bleach and fixed before mixing up a new batch?

I don't really know. 1L of developer one-shot in 1500 Jobo tank gets me 8 rolls. I use 1L of bleach and fixer for at least 15 rolls, probably more. I'm not really keeping notes, I just extend bleach and fixer times if I feel like it's been a while since I mixed fresh bleach/fixer.

 

[n8xland111]

I don't really know. 1L of developer one-shot in 1500 Jobo tank gets me 8 rolls. I use 1L of bleach and fixer for at least 15 rolls, probably more. I'm not really keeping notes, I just extend bleach and fixer times if I feel like it's been a while since I mixed fresh bleach/fixer.

So, looking at the SDS for each product on Cinestill website,
-The Bleach III Replenisher (2x10L) (both Parts A and B) are identical to the Bleach (Parts A and B) in the 5L C41 Kit (no starter in the kit)
-The LU LORR Developer Replenisher (4x10L) (Parts A, B and C) are identical to the Developer (Parts A, B and C) in the 5L C41 Kit (the kit does not have the chemicals from the starter in it)
-The Fixer and Replenisher is identical to the Fixer in the 5L C41 Kit

So it almost seems like the new Kit they're selling does NOT actually have any of the starters included...