New HC-110 Formula

Rudeofus

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AFAIK, new HC-110 is not more dilute than the old syrup. What apparently changed was that DEA-SO2 adduct was replaced with DEA and a highly concentrated K2SO3 stock solution. There may be water in this new soup when there was none in the old soup, but concentration of development ingredients apparently hasn't changed much.

BTW you could certainly modify a developer to develop Tri-X to normal contrast in 5:00 @20°C, but you would not be able to achieve a proportional dev time reduction for TMAX100 or other films. That dev times were kep for two very different films tells me, that the soup hasn't changed much in chemical terms, at least not in terms relevant to photographic development.

And yes, there are people who despise XTol, but I have not heard credible claims, that their spite is due to poor image quality (speed, grain, sharpness). People may be afraid of sudden death of XTol (or have experienced it themselves), others like contrasty negs, which they won't get with XTol, then there is the "gimme PlusX and D-76/D-23/twobath or gimme death" crowd. You won't convince XTol bashers with speed/sharpness/grain triangles, and just as well HC-110 users don't use it for its speed/sharpness/grain.

The real question will be, whether new low viscosity HC-110 has shelf life comparable to old syrupy HC-110, and I wouldn't dare to make credible statements about this before 2025.
 

NB23

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I don’t disagree. Although there is a high chance that the development time/strength is fairly linear.

HOWEVER (!), Kodak could go sloppy (a common thing now) and keep the old times and let the users deal with the testing part.

After all, it is they who:
-1) gave the wrong development times for hc110:B which were in fact for dilution A.
-2) Write caution that their times are only starting points, which in the end really means “this is ballpark data”.
-3) Absurdly enough, they do not recommend prolonging development times when their films are pushed 1 stop. I do understand the explanation for this, but it is not a satisfactory one (to me, anyways).

So all in all, I miss the old Kodak where you could call them 24/24 toll free (1.800.46.KODAK in Canada) and talk to real people within seconds. They had all the answers, even as to how to properly shake your tank. That was an Amazing corporation.
 

Alan Johnson

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Rudeofus said:
The real question will be, whether new low viscosity HC-110 has shelf life comparable to old syrupy HC-110, and I wouldn't dare to make credible statements about this before 2025.
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From the new Formula HC 110 given in post 27 it contains potassium sulfite.. Since this will not dissolve in any glycol AFAIK, it appears to be a solution in water. Hence it is very likely that the long shelf life found with glycol solutions will not be found in this case
 

Rudeofus

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You do realize, that Rodinal also is essentially a saturated NaKCO3 solution and has near infinite shelf life. We simply don't know, how new HC-110 will hold up over time.
 
OP
OP

Grim Tuesday

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On the subject of longevity, I got a response from Alaris, only a few weeks after asking!

We have the same expiry on the product which is 24 months and cannot guarantee results if the product is used past the dating.
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No information here except I think the unsigned person responding to my emails must be British, or else they would have called it expiration date, not expiry. Unless they're trying to throw us off the scent...
 

Raghu Kuvempunagar

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Alan Johnson said:
The first time anyone has suggested that a simple dimezone-HQ developer should have a shelf life similar to Rodinal.
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On the other hand, a simple MQ developer called Kalogen is reported to have multi-years shelf-life. See Gerry's posts on Kalogen.

There's an apparently long lasting PQ version of Kalogen too. Wish Gerry were here to confirm that.
 

Rudeofus

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Alan Johnson said:
The first time anyone has suggested that a simple dimezone-HQ developer should have a shelf life similar to Rodinal.
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Well, at least the old version of HC-110 has confirmed long shelf life. I bought a bottle 10 years ago, and eventually split its contents into smaller glass bottles. It still works as expected.
 

Alan Johnson

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Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
On the other hand, a simple MQ developer called Kalogen is reported to have multi-years shelf-life. See Gerry's posts on Kalogen.

There's an apparently long lasting PQ version of Kalogen too. Wish Gerry were here to confirm that.
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https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/rodinal-substitutes.13089/page-2#post-181710
Gerry Koch seems to be the only one to report on this. It maybe that he kept it in a sealed bottle rarely used.
In this discussion of shelf life of HC-110 new I am assuming that the bottle is often used, refills with air each time and may lose activity by oxidation.
 

Pixophrenic

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I can confirm that Koch's version of Kalogen is stable over 2 years when stored in complete absence of air. My version of it with reduced hydroquinone, mentioned in another thread, is now going on its 8th month visually unchanged. But this is a different phenomenon than stability in the presence of air. Just out of curiosity, I visited a local shop which still has a few bottles of "old, made in Germany" HC-110, and they are not even filled to the top. Sulfite-containing developers start to oxidize as soon as they are prepared, so addition of other chemicals is needed to slow this process down. If you do not believe me, fill a soft plastic bottle to a half with fresh D-76 (or 10% sulfite), close it tightly and observe for a couple of weeks. Reduced pressure inside will make the bottle collapse. I had this funny image somewhere, just can't find it now. You all know, however, that solutions of MCM100, containing catechol/PPD, while they progressively turn shades of yellow and orange, do not appreciably lose their activity in the presence of air (and water). So, a simple dimezone-hydroquinone developer might just do the same in the presence of potassium sulfite and some catechol. I might even suggest a heretic idea that it took decades to realize that with certain degree of water and chemical purity the arcane DEA-sulfite complex may not be necessary.
 

MattKing

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Sal Santamaura said:
Per Freestyle, while one-gallon packaging has been discontinued, the 50-liter version is still available:

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Quoting from that listing: "This item is no longer manufactured."
The catalogue number for the large quantity that they reference isn't even listed anymore on the recently published list of old and new Kodak Alaris chemical catalogue number.
I think Freestyle just has some very old stock (of a very good developer).
 

Sal Santamaura

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Likely a good deduction, but not necessarily conclusive. The TMAX RS 50-liter version's absence from this list


might simply indicate that Kodak Alaris was sourcing it from a supplier other than Tetenal. Low probability, but possible.

Within the last three months I'd considered trying TMAX RS for the curve shape it was documented to produce with some films. I decided not to after discovering that B&H listed it as "store pickup only." Glad I didn't persist and end up liking the combination.
 

MattKing

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T-Max RS is/was by far the most versatile of the two T-Max developers, given that it was the only one that was both suitable for sheet film and suitable for replenishment.
I do not understand why it, rather than the other version, would be the one discontinued.
Unless of course it is much more difficult to manufacture. Or that only Tetenal can manufacture it, and they are trying to move away from Tetenal.
And by the way, that list of the new catalogue numbers includes the new HC-110 and T-Max developers, which are most likely not manufactured by Tetenal.
 

Raghu Kuvempunagar

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Alan Johnson said:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/rodinal-substitutes.13089/page-2#post-181710
In this discussion of shelf life of HC-110 new I am assuming that the bottle is often used, refills with air each time and may lose activity by oxidation.
Click to expand...

Quoting Gerry on Kalogen's longevity:

"Probably not as long as the legendary Rodinal or HC-110 but still better than other developers I have used. I have had the last inch or so in a bottle last for a year. It got vary dark but still worked. Freshly made and in a stoppered PET bottle it is unchanged now for over 7 yrs."

"Stored in full, tightly capped bottles, the stock solution will keep indefinitely at room temperature. Partially filled bottles should remain good for at least a year."

That Kalogen offers multi-years longevity in full and sealed bottles and lasts multiple months in partially filled bottles is quite admirable. Frankly, if one truly cares about longevity, it doesn't take a lot of effort to store small volumes (< 1 litre) of concentrate in a handful of small bottles so that all but one is always full and tightly capped.
 

Pixophrenic

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Alan Johnson said:
Any evidence for this statement?
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I am not sure, Alan, what kind of evidence you need, but I will be willing to set up an experiment and show the deterioration of this developer over time. However, you certainly know that an alkaline solution of catechol deteriorates over a few hours (Windisch catechol- caustic, for example). Unfortunately, it will take many months for a conclusive demonstration with MCM100, which is in essence the same developer as Windisch but working at a lower pH due to PPD and a very odd buffer, which may be superfluous. For now I can show a result of a related experiment of adding p-phenylenediamine into diluted Rodinal (attachment). These fogged film strips were developed for two minutes in the respective solution, from right to left: Rodinal diluted 1:50, fresh; Rodinal after 1 month storage in a partially filled bottle, with various amounts of PPD shown. The density is expressed as level of grey in Photoshop. IMO, it demonstrates that Rodinal 1:50, even if it is not used, deteriorates completely in a month at room temperature in a partially filled bottle, while with as little as 2 g/L of PPD it pretty much holds its activity over the same time. MCM100 is in essence a catechol developer, like Windisch compensating or Meritol-caustic, but in the presence of PPD. BTW, PPD is from PF, and Rodinal is Tetenal's Paranol, however, scratch mixed p-aminophenol developer displays the same phenomenon.
 

Alan Johnson

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Pixophrenic said:
solutions of MCM100, containing catechol/PPD, while they progressively turn shades of yellow and orange, do not appreciably lose their activity in the presence of air (and water). .
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OK, thank you but I thought you might already have evidence but it appears this statement is not yet proven.
I don't want to take the thread off topic.
 

Rudeofus

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I have mixed MCM-100 a while back, but used CD-4 instead of plain PPD. After a few weeks/months the developer rose up in pH, which may explain its constant or even rising activity over time. I would still not consider it a long term stable developer.
 

Pixophrenic

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Alan Johnson said:
OK, thank you but I thought you might already have evidence but it appears this statement is not yet proven.
I don't want to take the thread off topic.
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It is not really off topic if you consider that as an illustration that there are other chemicals beside sulfite or its organic ion complexes that extend the life of a developer. Nor is the absence of water. It si just one of the possible solutions. I have a few such combinations "aging" in the basement, for example metol-PPD-catechol and PAP-PPD-HQ are doing well in incompletely filled bottles, when used sporadically to develop a clip. My point being that the new formulation of HC-110 may not lose its legendary stability if does not appear yellow, or viscous or otherwise organoleptically different.
 

NedL

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Just finished developing a roll of acros in HC-110, the pre-German pint bottle version. My RO water was coming out of the tap at 70°F, and it made me think of another nice feature of HC-110. The time compensation formula works really well as long as you're not more than a few degrees off from 68°F. I'm near the end of this bottle and have two remaining, so it will be a while before I'll try the new stuff. I'm also going through it fast enough that when I do try the new version I might not get a good test of shelf life.
 

silveror0

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See Post 161. It is definitely discontinued.
 
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