New Dektol looks like root beer

[Tom Kershaw]

Might be worth drawing a distinction between 'Eastman Kodak' manufactured products like the films and others that have been "outsourced" by Kodak Alaris for cost-saving or other reasons. Kodak film is a very high quality product.

 

[Pat Erson]

Kodak film is a very high quality product.

I would even dispute that claim... Once you've tried HP-5 you might consider Tri-x as an inferior copy of the Ilford film.

 

[tezzasmall]

It seems as if Kodak chemicals are becoming increasingly unreliable. You may want to just mix your own. It's easy and won't turn out brown and frothy. I mix both D-72 (Dektol without the fancy sequestering agents, etc.. If you like Dektol, D-72 performs identically. I mix down-and-dirty with measuring spoons.

Disclaimer: I own triple-beam balance scales and digital scales accurate to .01g. The spoon recipe works just fine for mixing this developer and is faster.

My D-72 spoon recipe

Water (125°F/52°C) ----------- 750.0 ml
(pinch of sodium sulfite before adding the Metol)
Metol ------------------------------- 1 tsp
Sodium Sulfite, anhy. -------- 2 Tbsp
Hydroquinone ------------------- 1 Tbsp + 1 tsp
Sodium Carbonate, mono. - 4 1/2 Tbsp.
Potassium Bromide ---------- 1/2 tsp or 20ml 10% stock solution
Water to make ----------------- 1 liter

Dilute 1+2 for normal use.

This is EZPZ and cheaper than Dektol once you've made the initial investment in stock chemicals. Often I'll just mix a two-liter batch of working solution by using 2/3 of the above measurements and bypass the stock solution.

Best,

Doremus

I too have been making and using teaspoon formula D72 for the past few months, initially whilst waiting for an order of 5 Litres of Ilford MG developer to arrive after a Bank holiday weekend. I liked it so much I kept mixing and using it. I'll have to use the Ilford stuff sooner or later I suppose...

It'll be interesting to do a print test using both of them side by side and then to compare them.

And as Doremus says, once you have the initial stock chemicals, it works out very cheap to make up. And to make it cheaper, I avoid buying photo grade Sodium Carbonate, I just buy a bag of washing soda powder - it also comes in large crystals - from the local corner shop for a £pound. (If you do buy it this way, get it as pure as possible. I recently looked at a bag in my local £Pound store and it was only about 40% Sodium Carbonate with a load of other stuff chucked in, so that bag went straight back on the shelf! It may be fine for washing clothes but not to go in my D72!)

I have been using it in my Nova slot processor btw and it has been just over a month now and it's still going strong!

Thumbs up for good old D72!

Terry S

 

[Dave Krueger]

I too have been making and using teaspoon formula D72 for the past few months, initially whilst waiting for an order of 5 Litres of Ilford MG developer to arrive after a Bank holiday weekend. I liked it so much I kept mixing and using it. I'll have to use the Ilford stuff sooner or later I suppose...

It'll be interesting to do a print test using both of them side by side and then to compare them.

...

I have been using it in my Nova slot processor btw and it has been just over a month now and it's still going strong!

Thumbs up for good old D72!

Terry S

I mixed up a batch of D-72 last night. I noticed it is somewhat clouded up with tiny precipitate particles which I assume are calcium carbonate. I plan to try it without filtering out the particles to see if they cause problems. Next time will use distilled water, although local stores are now rationing all bottled water. I read somewhere that EDTA would prevent the precipitate, but I have no idea whether that's true or how much I would have to add.

I plan to do a reprint today or tomorrow of a print that I did in fresh Dektol a while back. I keep detailed notes on prints, so I should be able to reproduce the original print with no problem.

 

[Anon Ymous]

@tezzasmall The stuff with 40% sodium carbonate might actually be the decahydrate form and could be fine for mixing developers if you adjust for the different molecular weights.

 

[Dave Krueger]

They didn't change bags. They changed manufacturers entirely - because the old manufacturer nearly disappeared!

No matter who manufactured the product, Kodak would have had to have signed off on any changes to the specified packaging or formula and approve a first article before production. This didn't just sneak up on them. It's possible the manufacturer made unauthorized changes after approval by Kodak, but I think it's more likely that Kodak simply didn't do their due diligence.

 

[MattKing]

No matter who manufactured the product, Kodak would have had to have signed off on any changes to the specified packaging or formula and approve a first article before production. This didn't just sneak up on them. It's possible the manufacturer made unauthorized changes after approval by Kodak, but I think it's more likely that Kodak simply didn't do their due diligence.

I don't disagree - it is Kodak Alaris' problem to deal with.
But it isn't a problem that arose because they decided to cut costs or because they found it convenient to switch to new packaging.
It is a problem that arose because one of the largest and most reliable manufacturers of photo-chemistry in the world (Tetenal) went into receivership. And Kodak Alaris made the reasonable decision to change manufacturers, which meant a whole bunch of other changes. A problem has arisen with one of those products.
Tetenal's problems caused a lot of other problems in the industry - there were real disruptions in the supply of many of the constituent ingredients, because many of the suppliers to Tetenal didn't get paid by Tetenal - including Kodak Alaris (Tetenal was also a big distributor of Kodak colour paper in the EU).
We have heard from Mirko and others in the industry that there are a lot of supply chain disruptions, which all the manufacturers are having to deal with. There may be a lot of other products that we are currently buying that have had or are having problems, but don't show up visually, so we haven't noticed them.

 

[Dave Krueger]

The D-72 I mixed up last night seems to work identically to Dektol. I use Dektol diluted 1+1 so I mixed the D-72 to match that. Same Dmax, same cold tones, and same exposure. The precipitates had mostly sunk to the bottom, but I don't like having particles in my developer, so hopefully they will go away if I use distilled water. Anchell's Cookbook says that water softening additives are best avoided because they can affect pH. It remains to be seen if the capacity and shelf life of the D-72 is as good as Dektol.

Thanks again for all the discussion and useful info.

 

[Anon Ymous]

The D-72 I mixed up last night seems to work identically to Dektol. I use Dektol diluted 1+1 so I mixed the D-72 to match that. Same Dmax, same cold tones, and same exposure. The precipitates had mostly sunk to the bottom, but I don't like having particles in my developer, so hopefully they will go away if I use distilled water. Anchell's Cookbook says that water softening additives are best avoided because they can affect pH. It remains to be seen if the capacity and shelf life of the D-72 is as good as Dektol.

Thanks again for all the discussion and useful info.

You can get rid of the precipitate with a coffee filter, this will give you a clear solution. If you mix your developer with distilled water you will get a clear solution, but further dilution must be done with distilled water, for obvious reasons. Finally, some water softening additives will alter pH, but not all do. Sodium hexametaphosphate will not alter pH and can be used at a concentration of 2g/l and upwards.

 

[Dave Krueger]

You can get rid of the precipitate with a coffee filter, this will give you a clear solution. If you mix your developer with distilled water you will get a clear solution, but further dilution must be done with distilled water, for obvious reasons. Finally, some water softening additives will alter pH, but not all do. Sodium hexametaphosphate will not alter pH and can be used at a concentration of 2g/l and upwards.

Thanks. I filtered it last night, so I'm good for now. I plan to use distilled water from now on which is easy to get here despite the rationing. I am mixing it directly into working strength, so I won't be further diluting it. I copied your comment into my notes for future reference. I don't know the first thing about water softening chemicals, so that could come in handy in the future if my water really is that hard.

 

[BradS]

The D-72 I mixed up last night seems to work identically to Dektol...

I cannot find the reference anymore (maybe it was the Kodak Darkroom Dataguide?) but my recollection is that Kodak said that D-72 is the essence of Dektol. The commercial product, Dektol adds...hmmm, I cannot think of the correct term right now but, "stuff" to deal with the wide variety of tap water likely to be encountered by users.

 

[removed account4]

I cannot find the reference anymore (maybe it was the Kodak Darkroom Dataguide?) but my recollection is that Kodak said that D-72 is the essence of Dektol.

you said it brother !
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/dektol-vs-d-72.138653/#post-1810292

from both Gerald Kotch and Ron Mowrey's and Michael's fingers...
the dektol has something in it so they can put it in a sac...

 

[BradS]

you said it brother !
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/dektol-vs-d-72.138653/#post-1810292

from both Gerald Kotch and Ron Mowrey's and Michael's fingers...
the dektol has something in it so they can put it in a sac...

Thanks John.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

The D-72 I mixed up last night seems to work identically to Dektol. I use Dektol diluted 1+1 so I mixed the D-72 to match that. Same Dmax, same cold tones, and same exposure. The precipitates had mostly sunk to the bottom, but I don't like having particles in my developer, so hopefully they will go away if I use distilled water. Anchell's Cookbook says that water softening additives are best avoided because they can affect pH. It remains to be seen if the capacity and shelf life of the D-72 is as good as Dektol.

Thanks again for all the discussion and useful info.

Dave,

Your precipitates are like insoluble impurities in your stock chemicals. Just filter them out before use. FWIW, my D-72 mixes up without a precipitate and I use moderately hard tap water for mixing. It all depends on the purity of your raw chemicals. Heading down to the darkroom to mix some ID-62 in just a minute.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Anon Ymous]

Dave,

Your precipitates are like insoluble impurities in your stock chemicals. Just filter them out before use. FWIW, my D-72 mixes up without a precipitate and I use moderately hard tap water for mixing. It all depends on the purity of your raw chemicals. Heading down to the darkroom to mix some ID-62 in just a minute.

Best,

Doremus

Nope, the chemicals can be fine and still get precipitate. Actually, you may dissolve everything and get crystal clear solution using tap water and within minutes notice the formation of cloudiness, which later becomes precipitate. If you use sodium sulfite, carbonate, or hydroxide, or the potassium equivalents, then this problem is basically guaranteed if your tap water is hard enough. If I use a sequestering agent, I always get nice and clean solutions, using exactly the same chemicals which would give me precipitate without the use of such an agent. I'd also get clear solutions if using deionised water without an agent. It is precisely a matter of water hardness that causes this problem and manufacturers of photo chemicals add these chemicals to their products, so anyone can use them, regardless of the nature of their tap water.

 

[Dave Krueger]

Dave,

Your precipitates are like insoluble impurities in your stock chemicals. Just filter them out before use. FWIW, my D-72 mixes up without a precipitate and I use moderately hard tap water for mixing. It all depends on the purity of your raw chemicals. Heading down to the darkroom to mix some ID-62 in just a minute.

Best,

Doremus

I just noticed that I made a mistake in converting the Sodium Carbonate from monohydrate to anhydrous. The formula calls for 80g monohydrate per liter of D-72 stock. For some reason I used 90g of anhydrous when it should have been 68.4g anhydrous per liter. Given the solubility of sodium carbonate in water, it's hard to believe that the particles are undissolved sodium carbonate, but I thought I'd mention the mistake anyway. Even with the higher concentration of sodium carbonate, it still seems to perform exactly like Dektol.

 

[Dave Krueger]

you said it brother !
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/dektol-vs-d-72.138653/#post-1810292

from both Gerald Kotch and Ron Mowrey's and Michael's fingers...
the dektol has something in it so they can put it in a sac...

Excellent! Thanks for that link!

 

[pentaxuser]

Interesting that people have mentioned precipitates and hardness of water being correlated in that in the U.K. the hardest water tends to be in the very area where one of the posters tezzasmall lives and he makes no mention of precipitates.

So Terry, if you are still following this thread can you say if you have this kind of problem? If you don't have it in Southend On Sea then there would seem to be little chance of this being a problem elsewhere for us in the U.K.

Thanks Terry

pentaxuser

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I'm in a very hard water area and have had variable experiences with precipitates. I mixed up some ID-78 paper developer on April 1st and everything worked perfectly; film developer I would probably mix in distilled water.

 

[mgb74]

I don't disagree - it is Kodak Alaris' problem to deal with.
But it isn't a problem that arose because they decided to cut costs or because they found it convenient to switch to new packaging.
It is a problem that arose because one of the largest and most reliable manufacturers of photo-chemistry in the world (Tetenal) went into receivership. And Kodak Alaris made the reasonable decision to change manufacturers, which meant a whole bunch of other changes. A problem has arisen with one of those products.
Tetenal's problems caused a lot of other problems in the industry - there were real disruptions in the supply of many of the constituent ingredients, because many of the suppliers to Tetenal didn't get paid by Tetenal - including Kodak Alaris (Tetenal was also a big distributor of Kodak colour paper in the EU).
We have heard from Mirko and others in the industry that there are a lot of supply chain disruptions, which all the manufacturers are having to deal with. There may be a lot of other products that we are currently buying that have had or are having problems, but don't show up visually, so we haven't noticed them.

I would respectfully disagree. The problem did not arise because Tetenal went into receivership, the problem arose because Kodak Alaris could not manage the shift of production to a new contract manufacturer. Or properly manage the supply chain providing chemicals to the contract manufacturer. Or do proper quality control to avoid bad product moving into distribution.

That said, Kodak Alaris has had to deal with a very adverse marketplace and is probably understaffed and overworked. And they may have wanted to increase their inventory while Tetenal was still able to produce but did not have the capital to do so. I still want to see them succeed.

 

[MattKing]

I would respectfully disagree. The problem did not arise because Tetenal went into receivership, the problem arose because Kodak Alaris could not manage the shift of production to a new contract manufacturer. Or properly manage the supply chain providing chemicals to the contract manufacturer. Or do proper quality control to avoid bad product moving into distribution.

That said, Kodak Alaris has had to deal with a very adverse marketplace and is probably understaffed and overworked. And they may have wanted to increase their inventory while Tetenal was still able to produce but did not have the capital to do so. I still want to see them succeed.

I think that was essentially what I said - or at least was trying to say.
Some of the earlier posts here seemed to be implying that the changes were due to trying to cheap out on some packaging or having a cavalier attitude about quality control, rather than a failure to deal with a major disruption to a supply chain.

 

[kreeger]

I purchased about 2 years ago a lot of original Kodak chemicals from an eBay seller. I got 9 sealed tin cans of Dektol in 1 gal size, some random other cans I won't use... likely from the late 70s or 80s and it was like $50 with shipping.
Somebody is selling some right now but won't ship it. There are folks trying to charge more to ship than to sell it also unfortunately.

Only offering it up as a suggestion. I have enough to last me for a while but I know the old Yellow Father edition in cans works perfectly.

Here is link 0- buy 5 gals for $60 free shipping.

 

[mshchem]

I've used Bromophen for years. When Ilford got in trouble the first time (when management bought the film and paper assets) I bought a dozen packages (5L) of Bromophen . I'm still using it up. Lovely stuff. No brown.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I've used Bromophen for years. When Ilford got in trouble the first time (when management bought the film and paper assets) I bought a dozen packages (5L) of Bromophen . I'm still using it up. Lovely stuff. No brown.

I've used lots of paper developers but never Bromophen for some reason. Dektol in D-72 guise was one of the most neutral to cold developers in tests I made several years ago, I had understood Bromophen tended slightly warmer?

 

[Dave Krueger]

I purchased about 2 years ago a lot of original Kodak chemicals from an eBay seller. I got 9 sealed tin cans of Dektol in 1 gal size, some random other cans I won't use... likely from the late 70s or 80s and it was like $50 with shipping.
Somebody is selling some right now but won't ship it. There are folks trying to charge more to ship than to sell it also unfortunately.

Only offering it up as a suggestion. I have enough to last me for a while but I know the old Yellow Father edition in cans works perfectly.

Here is link 0- buy 5 gals for $60 free shipping.

I never thought to check on ebay, but they have a ton of various canned Kodak chemicals. Nonetheless, I plan to stick with mixing my own for now. I'm intrigued by some of the formula variations I've seen, so I may experiment with those a bit, too.