New (as of 2019) airport CT scanners

[wiltw]

Ancient and no longer available? I just bought some at Freestyle. But good point… fast film first!

In reading "PanF' I got Ilford Pan F mixed up with Kodak Panatomix X

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning, just browsing through the whole thread since its start in 2019 and I had forgotten your cheerful prediction, Henning, in Feb 2020. Most here outside of the U.S. appear to be on the point of resignation that it will not happen so is there any update on the prospect of hand inspection for those of us outside the U.S. or do you now believe that hand inspection is now a "lost cause"?
Thanks
pentaxuser

I am still cautiously optimistic that there will be a reasonable solution in the mid- or long term. Probably I can write more about that in October.

Just another point as some members here from the "film is dead" group are looking at this topic in their very specific way:
Will this CT scanner problem - even if not solved, so in the worst case - significantly affect the film-revival?
No.
Because meanwhile 90-95% of all film photographs are made in non-travelling situations. And even most or at least lots of travels will not be affected by the CT problem, as
- travels by car are not affected
- travels by train are not affected
- flights from airports which are using conventional X-ray machines are not affected
- flights within a country with hand-check regulation - like the US - are not affected (and the US is still the biggest photo film market globally)
- on the routes which are affected there are some alternative strategies like buying film and processing at your travel destination, or ordering your film to the destination by the global film distributors.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for the reply Henning. I agree with all the points you make about the worst case scenario which is that of not solving the CT scanner problem not affecting the film revival. I suspect that most here agree with that as well.

In advance of your update in probably October, can I ask what are the grounds on which you are cautiously optimistic that there will be a reasonable solution in the mid to long term? Have you had an indication from the parties involved such as the film makers such as Ilford, Kodak etc or the airports authorities that they continue to work towards a solution and what do you believe the time scale of mid or long term to be?

y worry is that it would appear that the time scale for an air travel solution for most of us in the U.K. and Europe is relatively short as most airports appear to either have the new CT scanners already in place or will have such scanners by end 2021 or early 2022.

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Agulliver]

There may well be a time frame where things remain confused....we know that most European and UK airports will implement the new scanners in the coming 12 months or so if they haven't already. And for a time they might not know or care about film. That doesn't mean that by 2023 or 2024 the word won't have got around and a better solution put in place. Realistically the only solution is hand inspections...which I know the security staff are reluctant to do due to the extra time and interaction with passengers. People are generally scientifically illiterate, and if film is given a specific waiver from CT scanning people will demand phones, laptops, digital cameras and other items which are not in any way at risk have the same privilege because they won't understand the differences. Airline and airport FAQ's already have to point out that electronics aren't damaged by X-rays.

I agree that some recent travellers reporting here that film was not damaged weren't sure which scanners were in use, but at least one "got away" with using CT scanners for hand baggage. I am sure lots of people have got away with packing film in checked baggage but the risk is certainly there.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Agulliver but let's wait and see Henning's reply about what he means by mid to long term . I am hoping that his reference to October means that he expects the situation to have changed by then but it would be nice if he could give some indication of what it is that may have either happened by October or is actually ongoing by way of progress that makes him cautiously optimistic

pentaxuser

 

[PerTulip]

If I travel, I might find out which shop has film and email them to reserve whatever I need (and even pre-pay). That, of course, depends on the destination.

Then I might send my film back to me, as registered mail, parcel or whatever. Which is easy for 135 and 120. But what about 4x5? What do you recommend for travel? I never did 4x5 on travels before, so usually I go home with my holders and unload them. If I travel, what do I do with the film I get out of the holders? How do I store them? How do I avoid completely mixing up film types?

 

[fiddle]

Get an empty 4x5 film box and transfer the negatives from your holders to the box. I did this recently in a trip I did, national flight, but didnt feel like dealing with security, so I shipped the film to myself and back when I was done.

 

[wiltw]

How do I store them? How do I avoid completely mixing up film types?

That is the simplest of the issues. You can stack all films removed from film holders, and later sort them in darkroom conditions (or changing back) by the notch codes that exist on all commercially available 4x5 film. Wrap all films in aluminum foil for added protection from light and put back into a 4x5 film box for mailing back to yourself.

 

[PerTulip]

That is the simplest of the issues. You can stack all films removed from film holders, and later sort them in darkroom conditions (or changing back) by the notch codes that exist on all commercially available 4x5 film. Wrap all films in aluminum foil for added protection from light and put back into a 4x5 film box for mailing back to yourself.

Never bothered with the notch codes, since I always went directly from holder to developing...I will have to dig into them.

 

[abruzzi]

That is the simplest of the issues. You can stack all films removed from film holders, and later sort them in darkroom conditions (or changing back) by the notch codes that exist on all commercially available 4x5 film. Wrap all films in aluminum foil for added protection from light and put back into a 4x5 film box for mailing back to yourself.

The challenge with this is that some of the less expensive films (Foma, Catlabs, others?) don't have notch codes that identify the specific emulsion, just a small clip that helps you identify the which side the emulsion is on.

In addition, this may not be an issue for others, but my fingertips probably aren't as sensitive as others (type 1 diabetic), and I cant really feel the difference--like the time I tried to learn braille--I could feel the bumps, but I couldn't feel the arrangement of the bumps.

In these cases, I just limit the number of films I take, and have an empty box for each type.

 

[wiltw]

The challenge with this is that some of the less expensive films (Foma, Catlabs, others?) don't have notch codes that identify the specific emulsion, just a small clip that helps you identify the which side the emulsion is on.

In addition, this may not be an issue for others, but my fingertips probably aren't as sensitive as others (type 1 diabetic), and I cant really beel the difference--like thetime I tried to learn braille--I could feel the bumps, but I couldn't feel the arrangement of the bumps.

In these cases, I just limit the number of films I take, and have an empty box for each type.

An alternative would be to bring a small punch to uniquely identify multiple emulsions from one another...one vs two vs three notches punched at the end of each film, in addition to whatever notch identifies emulsion orientation.

 

[wiltw]

Never bothered with the notch codes, since I always went directly from holder to developing...I will have to dig into them.

One has to find notches in order to orient the film within the film holder, so emulsion side fall on the same side as the dark slide.
I frankly did not pay attention to the code itself, what was important was orientation. But notches help sort films into 'same emulsion type' if you put them all in one box before processing.

 

[abruzzi]

An alternative would be to bring a small punch to uniquely identify multiple emulsions from one another...one vs two vs three notches punched at the end of each film, in addition to whatever notch identifies emulsion orientation.

I have a standard office hole punch that I use to create notches when I cut 5x7 down to 6.5x9, but it can be a little tricky get a punch like that exactly the right depth so I don't cut too much of a hole. I'm trying to figure a way to easily limit how far in I can slide the film. there are a bunch or toole in the scrapbooking worls that would be perfect if they only made a simple punch, instead they make horribly decorative punches, but if you could do--one, tow, three punches, that would work well, its the wide vs narrow punches on the kodak/fuji/ilford sheets I have difficulty with.

 

[Agulliver]

Well I've tried contacting Luton and Heathrow airports and ended up being directed to the Department for Transport in both cases. So I've written to the DfT and simply stated that I'm aware the new CT scanners for cabin bags are being introduced, I'm aware they damage film, so what can we do to safely take film on board while also complying with all security needs.

I shall let you know if I receive a response.

 

[pentaxuser]

Well I've tried contacting Luton and Heathrow airports and ended up being directed to the Department for Transport in both cases. So I've written to the DfT and simply stated that I'm aware the new CT scanners for cabin bags are being introduced, I'm aware they damage film, so what can we do to safely take film on board while also complying with all security needs.

I shall let you know if I receive a response.

Nice one. I have written to IlfordPhoto, as I said, a few days ago. I too will report back as soon as I get a response.

pentaxuser

 

[Paul Howell]

I found the HLS web page, they recommend handing film over to be hand checked. Kodak does not recommend sending film though a scanner. I talked with FedEx, they do use a scanner but much lower dose than an airport scanner uses and if marked with not scan. Traveling in the states I will just hand my film over in a clear plastic bag, when traveling overseas will buy film and ship home FedEx. See no reason to take a chance that another country has different rules and without speaking the language will error on the side of caution.

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/items/film

 

[Paul Howell]

Thinking about it, as I will departing the U.S with a hand check for film, I will buy and take film with me. I normally use trains when in the UK or EU no trouble with scanners then will FedEx my film, exposed and unexposed to myself.

 

[pentaxuser]

I have now received a reply from IlfordPhoto as follows:
Thank you for your email.
We will be issuing an update on this imminently. So full details will be published on our website in the next week or so.

I can confirm our conclusions that CT scanning is unsafe for film and our upcoming report will include some sensitometry and further examples from the tests we did.

The DFT have been excellent to work with and in the UK it will now be possible to ask for a hand inspection of film at all airports where CT scanning is employed.

Globally we are working with our distribution partners to communicate with other regulatory bodies (although there's work to do here). In the US it is already possible to ask for hand inspection when travelling with film.

We have some other initiatives in place, so please keep an eye on our website / social for a more detailed communication in the very near future.

Kind regards,

Neil.


Technical Services
technical@harmantechnology.com

So my take on this: 1. Those travelling from any U.K. airport can expect a request for a hand inspection to be granted
2. Ilford are still working with other bodies which are not under the U.K. sphere of influence to ensure that similar arrangements will be puti in place
3. Ilford have some other( unspecified) initiatives in place which I assume are relevant to the scanner problem or at least to air travel.
4. It will be making an announcement on the above in a more detailed fashion in the very near future which I assume to be a matter of a few weeks or so

Good to know that Ilford had not resigned itself to a situation over which it either felt it had no influence or felt that was not worth the effort

pentaxuser

 

[BrianShaw]

They are a very committed and responsible company. This is what I would expect. I eagerly await their further information!

 

[wiltw]

Thx for the update, Pentaxuser. Some forward progress as a result of a film company in action on the issue!

 

[Disappointed_Horse]

I have now received a reply from IlfordPhoto as follows:
Thank you for your email.
We will be issuing an update on this imminently. So full details will be published on our website in the next week or so.

I can confirm our conclusions that CT scanning is unsafe for film and our upcoming report will include some sensitometry and further examples from the tests we did.

The DFT have been excellent to work with and in the UK it will now be possible to ask for a hand inspection of film at all airports where CT scanning is employed.

Globally we are working with our distribution partners to communicate with other regulatory bodies (although there's work to do here). In the US it is already possible to ask for hand inspection when travelling with film.

We have some other initiatives in place, so please keep an eye on our website / social for a more detailed communication in the very near future.

Kind regards,

Neil.


Technical Services
technical@harmantechnology.com

So my take on this: 1. Those travelling from any U.K. airport can expect a request for a hand inspection to be granted
2. Ilford are still working with other bodies which are not under the U.K. sphere of influence to ensure that similar arrangements will be puti in place
3. Ilford have some other( unspecified) initiatives in place which I assume are relevant to the scanner problem or at least to air travel.
4. It will be making an announcement on the above in a more detailed fashion in the very near future which I assume to be a matter of a few weeks or so

Good to know that Ilford had not resigned itself to a situation over which it either felt it had no influence or felt that was not worth the effort

pentaxuser

This is excellent news. Much credit to Ilford for this!

 

[Agulliver]

Thank you Pentaxuser, that is the best news possible for UK film users. And thank you Harman/Ilford for taking the trouble to do the tests and to engage with the DfT. And honestly thank you DfT for listening.

 

[mooseontheloose]

I have now received a reply from IlfordPhoto as follows:
Thank you for your email.
We will be issuing an update on this imminently. So full details will be published on our website in the next week or so.

I can confirm our conclusions that CT scanning is unsafe for film and our upcoming report will include some sensitometry and further examples from the tests we did.

The DFT have been excellent to work with and in the UK it will now be possible to ask for a hand inspection of film at all airports where CT scanning is employed.

Globally we are working with our distribution partners to communicate with other regulatory bodies (although there's work to do here). In the US it is already possible to ask for hand inspection when travelling with film.

We have some other initiatives in place, so please keep an eye on our website / social for a more detailed communication in the very near future.

Kind regards,

Neil.


Technical Services
technical@harmantechnology.com

So my take on this: 1. Those travelling from any U.K. airport can expect a request for a hand inspection to be granted
2. Ilford are still working with other bodies which are not under the U.K. sphere of influence to ensure that similar arrangements will be puti in place
3. Ilford have some other( unspecified) initiatives in place which I assume are relevant to the scanner problem or at least to air travel.
4. It will be making an announcement on the above in a more detailed fashion in the very near future which I assume to be a matter of a few weeks or so

Good to know that Ilford had not resigned itself to a situation over which it either felt it had no influence or felt that was not worth the effort

pentaxuser

Fantastic news pentaxuser! Based on this information I will be contacting Fujifilm here in Japan to see what their policy will be moving forward. On my last international trip (feb/march 2020), when I left Japan I did not see any CT scanners at the airport (KIX) but when I returned I did (in the customs area at least). I'm assuming more have been installed in the lead up to the Olympics, even though no tourists have been allowed in the country since then. That said, I think it's still possible to ask for a hand check here, but I'd like to see if they (or Ilford or Kodak) have any influence at airports in other parts of the world. The reality of cheaper long-haul flights means transiting through other major airports, and I'd like to know if I can have a CT-free experience from beginning to end. (Probably not, but one can always remain optimistic).

 

[AgX]

Thank you Pentaxuser, that is the best news possible for UK film users.

But for only those on domestic flights.

 

[pentaxuser]

But for only those on domestic flights.

Yes AgX is right as things stand at the moment but hopefully things will "snowball" in terms of other countries following suit. Well to be accurate, his post is nearly right as it would seem that air travel between the U.K. and the U.S. is now safe with film

Henning's "cautious optimism" in his reply to me might have some grounds

pentaxuser