New (as of 2019) airport CT scanners

[BrianShaw]

Just curious… Has anyone outside the US done anything more than carry on with “discussions and complains here on photrio”?

 

[Radost]

Just flew through Paris a week ago.
Border agent told me under 1000 iso it is fine. I have a few Kodak 3200 on top which I showed him. He said ok and passed my bag for hand check.
Again never had problem in europe.
In some Eastern European countries are softly resisting a hand check because they are lazy. But I insist and they do it.

 

[Paul Howell]

Thank you for actually checking!

I order from Freestyle, Photo Warehouse and B&H on a regular bases, I'm more concerned about ordering in the summer due to the high temps of the desert southwest, well over 10 years never have an problem with fogged film or paper, Fed X, UPS or USPS.

 

[AgX]

Remember Croatia was once part of Yugoslavia, part of the communist bloc.

Yugoslavia was communist, but NOT part of the Eastern Bloc. That made this country so special.

 

[wiltw]

Yugoslavia was communist, but NOT part of the Eastern Bloc. That made this country so special.

That may be true, and Tito might not have closely aligned with USSR, but I know the security guy at a small airport in Croatia was without doubt the least friendly and most stringent about inspecting my camera equipment that I have ever encountered in 50 years of air travel. His demeanor made the guys at Heathrow look friendly..

 

[Arthurwg]

I would not recommend dying over this. You may choose to yield or give in, but succumbing is a bit rash in this situation.

For me the loss of film is a kind of death.

 

[BrianShaw]

For me the loss of film is a kind of death.

Yes, for many of us also. But like taxes…

 

[Arthurwg]

So instead of enlargers, trays and chemicals it's going to be scanners, calibrated monitors, hard drives and ink jets? Count me out.

 

[wiltw]

So instead of enlargers, trays and chemicals it's going to be scanners, calibrated monitors, hard drives and ink jets? Count me out.

Digital beats CT-ruined film when you get them processed back at home...the lesser of the two evils is an individual choice.

I grew up and shot only film for the first 40 years of my life, before my wife bought me a digital P&S for Xmas in 2002 when they finally had 4MegaPixel sensors at a price a hobbyist could afford to buy. Meanwhile...

1. The manufacturers are eliminating my favorite emulsions one after another,
2. they have discontinued the format of choice for reducing roll count for MedFormat (220),
3. have discontinued my favorite print material (Cibachrome/Ilfochrome),
4. have discontinued the availability of instant print film for 4x5 verification of shot before exposing transparencies,
5. and the airports are now getting these CT machines at Security

...waiting for the knockout punch to come, they already have battered me pretty well.

 

[Agulliver]

Currently there are a lot of unknowns.....and some people are being rather pessimistic. Also a certain amount of taking things personally. The airports and airlines aren't doing this purposely to inconvenience us. Or stop us doing our hobby (or living). Ergo there is a decent chance something can be worked out. But moaning about it here on Photrio certainly won't help. Nor will wringing our hands and wailing about how it's a disaster.

The days are long gone when Mr and Mrs Average took their annual trip abroad with a seldom used P&S camera and one roll of Kodak Gold. We are few in number compared to the masses. But the airports aren't actively trying to prevent us from taking film on board.

So what can we do? I still think that politely writing to airports asking about the scanners, and what we can do to cooperate with the security bods while also safely transporting film. Ultimately I think.....we don't want to make the security staff's job more difficult than it is and they don't actually want to prevent us from doing anything safe and lawful. Maybe hand inspection will become more common outside the USA. There's also still uncertainty just how damaging these scanners are to film. We have too little data as yet, though certainly the potential is there.

 

[Film-Niko]

Currently there are a lot of unknowns.....and some people are being rather pessimistic. Also a certain amount of taking things personally. The airports and airlines aren't doing this purposely to inconvenience us. Or stop us doing our hobby (or living). Ergo there is a decent chance something can be worked out. But moaning about it here on Photrio certainly won't help. Nor will wringing our hands and wailing about how it's a disaster.

The days are long gone when Mr and Mrs Average took their annual trip abroad with a seldom used P&S camera and one roll of Kodak Gold. We are few in number compared to the masses. But the airports aren't actively trying to prevent us from taking film on board.

So what can we do? I still think that politely writing to airports asking about the scanners, and what we can do to cooperate with the security bods while also safely transporting film. Ultimately I think.....we don't want to make the security staff's job more difficult than it is and they don't actually want to prevent us from doing anything safe and lawful. Maybe hand inspection will become more common outside the USA. There's also still uncertainty just how damaging these scanners are to film. We have too little data as yet, though certainly the potential is there.

I completely agree.
Just with one exception: Most here are underestimating the number of film shooters worldwide, which is increasing. The number of instax instant film users is meanwhile already bigger compared to the total number of enthusiast digital ILC users! Last year Fujifilm has sold more instax cameras than all digital camera manufacturers together. And the younger crowd, which love these instax cameras, are also taking it on vacancies and on flights. My niece is just doing that next on her trip to North America.
So there are enough (potential) users out there who can change things to the positive if they are getting in contact with the airports and airlines (see my post above).

 

[Frank53]

There is so much that can be shot on film, without airtravel being involved (I belong to the generation that traveled from western europe to India and Nepal overland with a lot of film in our bags ) there is so much to shoot near home, there are so many ways to travel.
And in other cases, there is always digital

 

[Besk]

On my next trip to eastern Europe I will take a film camera with a few rolls of film plus a mirrorless camera - just in case.

 

[BrianShaw]

So what can we do? I still think that politely writing…

Sure, it can’t hurt. But as I asked before, Who is actually doing this? So far it seems nobody has bothered. How does one identify a person who might care and has any authority to change the situation?

I tried getting clarification/information from a manufacturer via their website enquiry function and was stifled by a reply-bot. Got two responses: “Well get back to you” and “what is the serial number of the specific machine”. Seemingly no way to get to a knowledgeable human. Maybe a phone call would be better. Perhaps walking into reception at their facility??

 

[Film-Niko]

Sure, it can’t hurt. But as I asked before, Who is actually doing this? So far it seems nobody has bothered. How does one identify a person who might care and has any authority to change the situation?

Wrong question.
Some members here are looking for someone else solving their problems ("one person with authority" doing the job). So that they themselves can stay inactive and lazy.
Everybody has to become active for himself. Thousands of photographers contacting airports and airlines can have an influence and changing the situation.
Like a grass roots movements. And the starting point for that movement can be photrio. We can be active by ourselves, spreading the word into other photography groups (like rff, and the countless film photographer groups on facebook which are much bigger than photrio), on instagram, youtube and reddit (all these groups are much much bigger than photrio, with much more film photographers there being active).

Around 2013/2014 exactly such a grass roots movement started with the film revival. And it worked extremely successful!! Much much better than any critics have ever thought.

 

[BrianShaw]

I don’t disagree with the concept of grass roots letter writing (etc) in quantities enough to get attention and I appreciate the encouragement but it doesn’t seem to be of much genuine interest.

I don’t think it’s the “wrong question”; Perhaps I should rephrase and expand the question: Have you (meaning “anyone”) actually written and sent such a letter? If so, to whom and what, if anything, was the reply or impact?

I’m curious, what was this 2013/2014 grass roots effort that was so successful? I seem to have forgotten.

 

[Film-Niko]

I don’t disagree with the concept of grass roots letter writing (etc) in quantities enough to get attention and I appreciate the encouragement but it doesn’t seem to be of much genuine interest.
I don’t think it’s the “wrong question”; Perhaps I should rephrase and expand the question: Have you (meaning “anyone”) actually written and sent such a letter? If so, to whom and what, if anything, was the reply or impact?

Well, I have written to my main used airport. They answered that carrying film is no problem because no CT scanners are used there for hand-luggage. They are using the established X-ray machines which are safe for film up to ISO 800.

I’m curious, what was this 2013/2014 grass roots effort that was so successful? I seem to have forgotten.

Look here at numerous threads and discussions about the topic on photrio at that time. Our member H. Serger explained and promoted that idea in detail at that time. Because of his work as a scientific market researcher he had identified the huge potential for a long term film revival. He had designed econometric research models for the photo markets, which have been proven very precise over the years.
He explained that when the film photographers, the labs and all other film companies and related businesses get more active in film presentation, spreading the word and marketing for classic film - starting a grass roots movement - a significant film revival will be very realistic.
And then indeed first photographers and companies did exactly that, using modern communication channels like facebook, instagram, youtube, reddit and so on. And over the years more and more film photographers and film companies joined this movement and fueled the film revival.
For example on youtube you have now hundreds (!!) of film photography channels.
And on instagram alone more than a million active film photographers.
Hundreds of film photographer groups on facebook. Lots of them much bigger than photrio.

AFAIK H. Serger also started some direct general film photography supporting initiatives on different levels at that time, too. But best to asked him directly, he is the expert, not me.

 

[BrianShaw]

Look here at numerous threads and discussions about the topic on photrio at that time.

Yes, I've seen those, as well as the various YouTube video channels, as well as the facebook (etc) groups. All good stuff. There are still folks interested in film and actively promoting the use of film. Halleluiah!

It seems that where we aren't seeing exactly eye-to-eye probably has more to do with definition of "grass roots movement". My impression is that grass-roots movements work best (only work?) when there is a nexus for that movement that provides either coordination or some sort of common ground. Otherwise, it is perceived as just a few quacks, including a lot of folks who want to hide behind anonymous internet handles, writing letters about stuff that few actually still care about. Note that most of the recent grass-roots movements, such as social causes, all have some sort of unifying entity to fund the promulgation of their message.

Yes, Photrio might be that nexus but nobody is doing much more than complaining or suggesting that something be done. Few will even answer the question about whether they have done anything proactive in the CT grass-roots effort yet or not. I tried opening a discussion with a leading equipment manufacturer and initially hit a brick wall. You did also. The answer, though, was quite authoritative for the older equipment and say nothing about their approach with CT scanners when/if they get them in the future.

I'm generally skeptical of this "revival" of film. Film photography, much to our disappointment, is just a shell of what it once was. I personally think that what folks are calling a revival is nothing more than another last gasp of breath by a dying industry. I'm sad but will gladly celebrate that since it wards of film's possible complete demise. Like many other old-guys here, I never left film and see more decline than increase. I have no doubt that Serger has worked diligently for the film photography cause. Serger (and others, perhaps) claim to have data on this alleged film revival but then protect it like the crown jewels. I completely understand him protecting "his secret sauce" and have no reason to doubt but would like to share the joy of seeing the data behind what they say are the trends. Surely the film company executives want to see data rather than just "arm waving". There is little reason to believe just because someone says to believe.

 

[pentaxuser]

Brian I have asked Henning in#726 if he has any more information on his prediction that hand inspection will be available to those travel outside of the U.S.

Of course I have no idea how often he checks into Photrio which will determine when he sees my post, assuming he looks at recent posts on airport scanners

I also asked IlfordPhoto on Friday last, 20 August 2021, if it had any update to give us. I based this on the small article in its FAQ section on travelling by air with film

We may have to wait a week or so for an answer.

pentaxuser

 

[BrianShaw]

I hope he answers from his perspective. I hoped (and will pursue when time allows) the perspective of the equipment manufacturers who work with the airport and government agencies.

In the past, it was a formal consortium of film manufacturers in conjunction with the FAA that addressed the grass-roots concerns with studies to establish the film safety guidance. They are long gone. Their reports are no longer on the internet (except possibly in the time machine). If other governments did similar, I’ve never seen indications of such or a report of results/conclusions.

 

[wiltw]

I hope he answers from his perspective. I hoped (and will pursue when time allows) the perspective of the equipment manufacturers who work with the airport and government agencies.

In the past, it was a formal consortium of film manufacturers in conjunction with the FAA that addressed the grass-roots concerns with studies to establish the film safety guidance. They are long gone. Their reports are no longer on the internet (except possibly in the time machine). If other governments did similar, I’ve never seen indications of such or a report of results/conclusions.

It is still possible to pull up the Kodak statements on film safety!

 

[BrianShaw]

It is still possible to pull up the Kodak statements on film safety!

Yes, Kodak and FAA. I’m referring to the I3C studies that established/validated those recommendations. (EDIT: former/traditional x-ray carry on scanners and CT-based hold baggage scanners); Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, and other film makers of that day were members and participants.

 

[pentaxuser]

It is still possible to pull up the Kodak statements on film safety!

Would those statements still be valid for the new CT scanners? |It sounds from my interpretation of the above posts that such statements will precede the new CT scanners

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[BrianShaw]

Would those statements still be valid for the new CT scanners? |It sounds from my interpretation of the above posts that such statements will precede the new CT scanners

Thanks

pentaxuser

I believe Kodak has addressed CT devices. Here is one such notice, specific to motion picture but film is film (since this was so easy to find I’ll waive my research and consulting fee):

https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/page/transporting-storing-film

Other media-based warnings specific to film, CT and new carry-on scanners have been issued by Kodak since 2019.

i edited the earlier post to clarify the bounds of the I3C consortium studies. Indeed, they and their data are historical at this point. Kodak pubs are more current but do not have more updated scientific rigor behind them that we know about.

 

[wiltw]

Would those statements still be valid for the new CT scanners? |It sounds from my interpretation of the above posts that such statements will precede the new CT scanners

Thanks

pentaxuser

Those old statements pertained to CT Checked Luggage scanning and the use of X-ray at Security before gates. More recent statements have also been issued about the newer CT scanners being installed at airport gate Security around the world being a danger to film, and we have testimony from a number of POTN members about film damage already proven, with already posted shots of negative strips in this very thread, in airports such as Schipol, and then we have other statements about travelers who got thru with no film damage...conflicting experiences but little detail about what, if any, differences would explain such variance in experience thru the same airport.