New (as of 2019) airport CT scanners

bernard_L · Jun 10, 2020

Daniela said:
Oh, wow, that wasn't at all my experience with their repairs, but thanks for sharing yours!
Is there any other repair service you can recommend in the Paris area?
Signed: shallow pockets

This will not be the first instance of a repair shop with contrasted evaluations. Specifically, I was charged 300€ for fixing a GS645W that was functional but with: (a) some stiffness in speed/aperture rings; (b) some stiffness in film advance; (c) some dust in viewfinder. Looks to me, from what i read, like the cost of a full CLA for a Leica. And what I saw when i opened the camera myself, as already written.
A contrasting experience was the local (Grenoble) repairman who fixed the shutters of two MF Mamiya C lenses (dragging at slow speeds) for a total of 32€. Too bad, back then he was about to close shop and retire.
But we are moving away from the title of the thread.

flavio81 · Dec 16, 2020

Henning Serger said:
I am for about 14 years now here on apug/photrio. During this time I've read so much pessimistic views, so much fears, so much negativity, so much film doom-and-gloom, so much FUD, so much "That-will-be-the-last-nail-in-film's-coffin".......but 95% of these negative predictions have been proven completely wrong. Period.
Just remember when the new investor Pemberstone invested in Harman technology / Ilford Photo in 2015. So many of the doom-and-gloom preachers predicted their death. It was one of the most disgusting threads in apugs/photrios history (you find it in the Ilford subforum). So much bullshit from people with no knowledge about the topic. And now Ilford Photo is in its best shape, has invested in new, improved products, offering mere products, and is successfully in new marketing strategies.
Some people should be really ashamed about what they have written at that time.
Much to much of this "committing suicide because of fear of the death" here over all the years on photrio.

Great post, Henning. Epic.

I was just about to write a pessimistic post.

I guess the film industry will do something. What worries me most than travelling with film, is shipping film unharmed to other countries without damage. If this isn't guaranteed, that would surely signal the end of film...I don't think the manufacturers would stand still.

We must request hand inspection as an ethical duty. The more people request hand inspection, the better. How many travellers carry film? 0.01%? How many people does an airport officer watch pass through an inspection lane after one year? probably about 144,000 using a conservative estimate (20 people/hr). 0,01% of that is 14 people. If one officer, after a year of work, has 14 instances of film users requesting inspection, he/she will get educated on film, and eventually airports will have no problems obliging.

Duty now for the future!

Sirius Glass · Dec 16, 2020

flavio81 said:
Great post, Henning. Epic.

I was just about to write a pessimistic post.

I guess the film industry will do something. What worries me most than travelling with film, is shipping film unharmed to other countries without damage. If this isn't guaranteed, that would surely signal the end of film...I don't think the manufacturers would stand still.

We must request hand inspection as an ethical duty. The more people request hand inspection, the better. How many travellers carry film? 0.01%? How many people does an airport officer watch pass through an inspection lane after one year? probably about 144,000 using a conservative estimate (20 people/hr). 0,01% of that is 14 people. If one officer, after a year of work, has 14 instances of film users requesting inspection, he/she will get educated on film, and eventually airports will have no problems obliging.

Duty now for the future!

+1,000,000

CMoore · Dec 16, 2020

flavio81 said:
Great post, Henning. Epic.

I guess the film industry will do something. What worries me most than travelling with film, is shipping film unharmed to other countries without damage. If this isn't guaranteed, that would surely signal the end of film...I don't think the manufacturers would stand still.

!

Scanners have been around for quite some time.
What have manufactures done in the past when they ship film over borders.?

Thank You

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 16, 2020

In all this, a sticker printed from Kodak's web site will not do it. No matter how many attempt hand inspection, there is no written rule it must be adhered to. If there is no regulation stipulating this approach, there is no rule to follow, thus no guarantees. This is nothing but at the mercy of actual individual on the job. Some understand it, many don't, nor are they willing to.

I agree there is little danger to flights' safety / security from film being carried on board, but it is NOT zero. There is no question film carrying can be accommodated, scanners avoided, and a lot of film shooters (who travel) happier. But it has to be regulated and some checks applied to maintain safe flights. If there is none, it will have eventually become a loophole to be exploited for all the wrong reasons.

Is film dead, if airports tighten screening even further? I don't think so.

wiltw · Dec 16, 2020

Witold said:
In all this, a sticker printed from Kodak's web site will not do it. No matter how many attempt hand inspection, there is no written rule it must be adhered to. If there is no regulation stipulating this approach, there is no rule to follow, thus no guarantees. This is nothing but at the mercy of actual individual on the job. Some understand it, many don't, nor are they willing to.

^
I started to make a lot of business trips internationally in the early 1980's, continuing thru my (early) retirement in 2010, logging over 1 Million miles.
In ALL of my travels thru London Heathrow Airport, to get to my end destination, I NEVER have gotten the security inspection to ever do a hand inspection, even when travelling with ISO 1600 film in a clear plastic bag...they throw the bag on the X-ray belt after hearing my request! They apparently do not speak Enlish there, or they hire only mutes, as I do not even get a verbal response before the bag is thrown on the Xray belt.

AgX · Dec 16, 2020

CMoore said:
Scanners have been around for quite some time.
What have manufactures done in the past when they ship film over borders.?

In the past they put their films into containers sealed on the plant by custom officers and were not opened or X-rayed on their route.

CMoore · Dec 16, 2020

AgX said:
In the past they put their films into containers sealed on the plant by custom officers and were not opened or X-rayed on their route.

I see..... Thank You

NB23 · Dec 16, 2020

Simple, I avoid Heathrow. They have always been super strict. And if you ask for a hand inspection, they will Bazooka the films.

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 16, 2020

wiltw said:
^
I started to make a lot of business trips internationally in the early 1980's, continuing thru my (early) retirement in 2010, logging over 1 Million miles.
In ALL of my travels thru London Heathrow Airport, to get to my end destination, I NEVER have gotten the security inspection to ever do a hand inspection, even when travelling with ISO 1600 film in a clear plastic bag...they throw the bag on the X-ray belt after hearing my request! They apparently do not speak English there, or they hire only mutes, as I do not even get a verbal response before the bag is thrown on the Xray belt.

Not all that unusual to deal with death people, who appear to hear fine otherwise.

To me the task of trying to make hand inspection a rule is simply not possible to gain any measurable ground, even more so these days when "a what?" (or "I beg your pardon?") is ever more likely a response. I suppose knowing about some particularly painful airports may help planning a trip, if hand inspection is that critical, but not all can be avoided, and none has policy of guaranteeing anything in this regard anyways. Buying film locally is also not a solution anymore, as most films are likely scanned and re-scanned before they get sold. I'm not even sure how a newly produced film makes it across oceans or atmosphere to distributors on a different continent, without getting pummeled by rays of all kinds on multiple occasions.

flavio81 · Dec 16, 2020

wiltw said:
^
I started to make a lot of business trips internationally in the early 1980's, continuing thru my (early) retirement in 2010, logging over 1 Million miles.
In ALL of my travels thru London Heathrow Airport, to get to my end destination, I NEVER have gotten the security inspection to ever do a hand inspection, even when travelling with ISO 1600 film in a clear plastic bag...they throw the bag on the X-ray belt after hearing my request! They apparently do not speak Enlish there, or they hire only mutes, as I do not even get a verbal response before the bag is thrown on the Xray belt.

About 10 or 8 years ago I travelled twice to the USA, 18 years ago to Venezuela. On those trips flights I requested visual inspection of my 35mm films at every checkpoint and I visual inspection at all airports: Lima ---> a central american city (el salvador?) ---> Miami intl. ----> Dulles Intl. Airport.

Last two trips, to Bogota (last year) and Santiago de Chile (this year) i didn't bother -- just put the film through the X-ray machines. But those were the conventional machines.

BTW customs People were very nice at Caracas, Venezuela airport, and last year at Bogota (Aeropuerto el Dorado). Not so much at the Chilean airport... customs people were unfriendly.

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 16, 2020

Witold said:
Not all that unusual to deal with death people, who appear to hear fine otherwise.

To me the task of trying to make hand inspection a rule is simply not possible to gain any measurable ground, even more so these days when "a what?" (or "I beg your pardon?") is ever more likely a response. I suppose knowing about some particularly painful airports may help planning a trip, if hand inspection is that critical, but not all can be avoided, and none has policy of guaranteeing anything in this regard anyways. Buying film locally is also not a solution anymore, as most films are likely scanned and re-scanned before they get sold. I'm not even sure how a newly produced film makes it across oceans or atmosphere to distributors on a different continent, without getting pummeled by rays of all kinds on multiple occasions.

So it would help to know for sure how film is transported these days with respect to x-raying. It seems to me that it is no longer possible for film to NOT be scanned between factory to warehouses. If that's the case, we are just procrastinating over a non existent issue. A lot of transportation hubs must scan ALL containers/shipments coming through them. Is it possible to have a marked one to prevent a scan in its entire route? I seriously doubt it, even if there is some sort of industry agreement to do so.

I would think @Henning Serger might be the only person to pitch in on this one with any authority.

MattKing · Dec 16, 2020

Given the huge volumes of container traffic, I am quite sure that only a portion of those containers are scanned.
In 2019, 3.4 million twenty foot equivalents (TFEs) were shipped through our port(s) here - almost all to or from foreign countries.
There is no way they have the capacity to scan every container.

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 16, 2020

Not every container needs to be scanned at its every stop though. Most get scanned after they leave port. While major hubs have huge screening capacity, all largely automated now, as containers leave the main hub, their seemingly high numbers get diluted quick en-route.

But the main point is, if there is NO industry/customs agreement on a world wide scale specifically for zero-scanning in film shipments, the whole discussion is moot.

Arthurwg · Dec 16, 2020

wiltw said:
^
I started to make a lot of business trips internationally in the early 1980's, continuing thru my (early) retirement in 2010, logging over 1 Million miles.
In ALL of my travels thru London Heathrow Airport, to get to my end destination, I NEVER have gotten the security inspection to ever do a hand inspection, even when travelling with ISO 1600 film in a clear plastic bag...they throw the bag on the X-ray belt after hearing my request! They apparently do not speak Enlish there, or they hire only mutes, as I do not even get a verbal response before the bag is thrown on the Xray belt.

Yes, Heathrow is/was the worst. But it's a horrible airport anyway and I have avoided it for years. There are alternatives.

reddesert · Dec 17, 2020

These new scanners being discussed are used for screening carry on bags at airports. It is not clear to me if they are also being used to screen checked bags (it may be somewhere way back in the thread). No one has given evidence that they are used for commercial air cargo. I don't think anyone's given evidence against that, either - it would be difficult to know, so far.

It's clear that we can buy film overseas from its country of origin, and no one has reported these problems with off the shelf film yet.

There are several levels of film transportation with, I'm guessing, increasing levels of exposure risk:
1. Manufacturers shipping bulk film
2. Manufacturers shipping packaged film in rolls/canisters
3. Dealers air-shipping film domestically or internationally (like, buying film from Freestyle or B&H and air-shipping)
4. Consumers air-mailing film, e.g. ahead to their destination
5. Passengers taking film on an airplane in carry on or checked bags.

We know that (5) can be a problem now. We aren't sure about (4) as a way to get around it. Levels 1-3 are a different story. Commercial shipping is a completely different set of protocols from hand baggage at airports, so it's a little early to say that this is the death of film.

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 17, 2020

Let me just say this: scanning is THE method from hand bags to containers. Container movement is a highly automated system, from booking to final destination, with locator chips, content scanning, storage stacking etc. all highly controlled by networks of computers, Frauds are all over trying to outsmart governance, AI is fighting back. This is long no longer an industry with notepads, pencils, and guessing what is where and where it is going. Days of Denver airport baggage system are long gone too.

Does all this matter to safe shipments of film? In a sense it might. The point being: is industry on an agreement how it is tracked and handled ? Or, does the scanning really do any damage to it?

AgX · Dec 18, 2020

The problem is, you cannot expect to get a serious reply when approaching custom authority and asking for advice what to do to make them by no means scanning a parcel of yours. But of course you can give it try. But then still chances are that more than one authority would be involved en-route.

My experience with the industry is, that this is one of the issues they are unwilling to talk about.

But we got one manufacturer amongst us, Mirko Böddecker. Ask him, not his spokesman, to chime in.

Sirius Glass · Dec 18, 2020

Not just Heathrow, in De Gaule Airport in Paris, they did not even pay attention while I was asking for a hand inspection. They just threw the camera bag in the X-ray machine.

koraks · Dec 18, 2020

Never argue with French security officials of any kind. They're not programmed that way

Sirius Glass · Dec 18, 2020

koraks said:
Never argue with French security officials of any kind. They're not programmed that way

French security officials can tell someone off very well in English, but refuse to understand spoken English.

Agulliver · Dec 18, 2020

Presumably even with covid restrictions we've now had sufficient time for some photographers to travel with film using airports that have the new CT scanners. Any good or bad experiences regarding the scanner's effects on film?

Sirius Glass · Dec 18, 2020

COVID cause me to cancel three trips that I had planned. So no more trips are planned for now.

skysh4rk · Dec 18, 2020

Agulliver said:
Presumably even with covid restrictions we've now had sufficient time for some photographers to travel with film using airports that have the new CT scanners. Any good or bad experiences regarding the scanner's effects on film?

I’ve never otherwise had a problem with x-ray damage, but have flown through Schipol in Amsterdam twice since they installed the new scanners and negatives were fogged each time (lab commented on this, so not my imagination). Film was 160 and 400 ISO. Security would not even entertain possibility of hand check.

Renato Tonelli · Dec 18, 2020

1. Is there a list of airports that have the new scanners?
2. Does JFK allow hand inspections?

Entering high anxiety mode here

New (as of 2019) airport CT scanners

bernard_L

flavio81

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CMoore

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wiltw

AgX

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NB23

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MattKing

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Arthurwg

reddesert

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AgX

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Sirius Glass

Agulliver

Sirius Glass

skysh4rk

Renato Tonelli

New (as of 2019) airport CT scanners

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