New: ADOX SCALA BW reversal kit

[Tom Kershaw]

Yes. The instructions - the booklet which is shipped with every SCALA kit - will also soon be available online as pdf.

I sometimes misplace booklets and instructions etc. so a downloadable option is much appreciated.

 

[Team ADOX]

This is great news for all lovers of B&W reversal processing.

@ADOX Fotoimpex: I checked MSDS of the reversal kit on Fotoimpex site. It has information only on the first developer and nothing on the bleach. Is this the complete MSDS or by mistake you've made only one part of it available? Can you kindly check and confirm?

The data sheet is complete and contains all needed information for the user.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

The data sheet is complete and contains all needed information for the user.

@Team ADOX: Thanks for the response. Interestingly, MSDS of Scala reversal kit on FotoImpex website discusses only the first developer and not the bleach. Does this mean that the bleach doesn't contain any hazardous substance like potassium permanganate?

 

[DeletedAcct1]

@Team ADOX: Thanks for the response. Interestingly, MSDS of Scala reversal kit on FotoImpex website discusses only the first developer and not the bleach. Does this mean that the bleach doesn't contain any hazardous substance like potassium permanganate?

The bleach contains potassium permanganate. There are no other oxidant that dichromate, permanganate, cerium sulfate or H2O2 available.
So it's permanganate.
To me Adox has skipped the publication of the bleach MSDS because otherwise it would reveal the "three years of R&D" that extend considerably the shelf life of it. But we all know what's the secret ingredient is and why it extend the permanganic acid shelf life.

 

[Team ADOX]

So, if one wants to make the kit work for any films other than Scala, he/she is on his own

For a better understanding of the facts it is certainly useful to have a look at the recent history of SCALA reversal films:
When the stocks of Agfa Scala 200X came to an end, both Scala enthusiasts and the professional BW reversal / Scala labs asked us whether we could develop a successor. That's how our project ADOX SCALA 160 started. We succeeded, and the market got a successor for Agfa Scala 200X. Most customers used the film in combination with the established BW reversal / Scala processing labs. Some customers used home developing kits or mixed their own chemistry. With ADOX SCALA 50 we also added another excellent BW reversal film. But over the years an increasing number of SCALA 160 and SCALA 50 customers have asked us for a special ADOX SCALA BW reversal kit for our SCALA films. A kit, which is user friendly and easy to ship worldwide. This demand comes especially from all the countries without a professional BW reversal lab. And in addition the demand has increased from users who have discovered the joy of film processing at home. Processing at home has recently seen a very strong increase in demand in general for all film types and processes.
Therefore our goals for our new ADOX SCALA reversal kit have been very clear:
- to satisfy the requests and wishes of our loyal ADOX SCALA film customers for a high quality home processing kit for our SCALA films
- to offer a kit which can be shipped worldwide
- to offer a kit which is easy to use
- to offer a kit which is more health / eco friendly
- to offer a kit at a user friendly price.

With these priorities - which our customers have asked for - we started the R&D process. A very labour intensive (= cost intensive) and difficult work for about three years.
But we succeeded and as a result we now can offer exactly what our SCALA film customers have asked for.

Concerning tests and data for other BW films from other manufacturers: There are currently more than 30 different BW emulsions on the market (real emulsions, not just rebranded films). BW reversal processing is much more sophisticated and difficult than normal negative processing, and such tests of all these films would need a huge amount of time, it is really a lot of work. That means very high additional costs! Additional qualified staff must be hired. These costs of course would have to be implemented in the price. The kit would be much more expensive. Our goal of a user friendly price would not be possible anymore.
And the huge majority of our ADOX SCALA film users - who have asked for this kit - would then pay for the very small minority of users who would use the kit for other films. That would not be fair.

We will not exclude that further films may be added to the data sheet in the future. But we cannot promise anything at this time point either. Costs, time and the given resources at our very small 'start-up' company all very important and decisive factors.
Thanks for your understanding.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

@Team ADOX I cannot see how any company, small or large, can test a product with all possibile choices out there, even if these days choice of film very limited compared to when film was king.

For kicks I have just looked at current IlfordPhoto ID-11 film developer page. Times are given for only Ilford branded films, not even ones they also make, but under another name. And testing B&W developer is far less tasking than a reversal chemistry. So Ilford does not even publish times for few more emulsions they make in house, let alone everything else out there.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

@Team ADOX I cannot see how any company, small or large, can test a product with all possibile choices out there, even if these days choice of film very limited compared to when film was king.

For kicks I have just looked at current IlfordPhoto ID-11 film developer page. Times are given for only Ilford branded films, not even ones they also make, but under another name. And testing B&W developer is far less tasking than a reversal chemistry. So Ilford does not even publish times for few more emulsions they make in house, let alone everything else out there.

If you download this https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1829/product/708/ there are the times for other manufacturer's films at page 6.
I'd agree 100% on the fact that testing a reversal kit for other films is practically impossible and a daunting task.
No other manufacturers recommed their kits with films other than that thei own.
Kodak Direct Positive Outfit and the latter Kodak T-max reversal kit
Foma reversal kit
Ilford reversal kit
Adox reversal kit

There are (were) other reversal kits made by.
Tetenal
Bellini foto
Photographer's fomulary

that can/could be used with other films but with mixed results imho.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

For a better understanding of the facts it is certainly useful to have a look at the recent history of SCALA reversal films:
When the stocks of Agfa Scala 200X came to an end, both Scala enthusiasts and the professional BW reversal / Scala labs asked us whether we could develop a successor. That's how our project ADOX SCALA 160 started. We succeeded, and the market got a successor for Agfa Scala 200X. Most customers used the film in combination with the established BW reversal / Scala processing labs. Some customers used home developing kits or mixed their own chemistry. With ADOX SCALA 50 we also added another excellent BW reversal film. But over the years an increasing number of SCALA 160 and SCALA 50 customers have asked us for a special ADOX SCALA BW reversal kit for our SCALA films. A kit, which is user friendly and easy to ship worldwide. This demand comes especially from all the countries without a professional BW reversal lab. And in addition the demand has increased from users who have discovered the joy of film processing at home. Processing at home has recently seen a very strong increase in demand in general for all film types and processes.
Therefore our goals for our new ADOX SCALA reversal kit have been very clear:
- to satisfy the requests and wishes of our loyal ADOX SCALA film customers for a high quality home processing kit for our SCALA films
- to offer a kit which can be shipped worldwide
- to offer a kit which is easy to use
- to offer a kit which is more health / eco friendly
- to offer a kit at a user friendly price.

With these priorities - which our customers have asked for - we started the R&D process. A very labour intensive (= cost intensive) and difficult work for about three years.
But we succeeded and as a result we now can offer exactly what our SCALA film customers have asked for.

Concerning tests and data for other BW films from other manufacturers: There are currently more than 30 different BW emulsions on the market (real emulsions, not just rebranded films). BW reversal processing is much more sophisticated and difficult than normal negative processing, and such tests of all these films would need a huge amount of time, it is really a lot of work. That means very high additional costs! Additional qualified staff must be hired. These costs of course would have to be implemented in the price. The kit would be much more expensive. Our goal of a user friendly price would not be possible anymore.
And the huge majority of our ADOX SCALA film users - who have asked for this kit - would then pay for the very small minority of users who would use the kit for other films. That would not be fair.

We will not exclude that further films may be added to the data sheet in the future. But we cannot promise anything at this time point either. Costs, time and the given resources at our very small 'start-up' company all very important and decisive factors.
Thanks for your understanding.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

This was a highly insightful post on the thinking behind the reversal kit. Thanks so much.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

If you download this https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1829/product/708/ there are the times for other manufacturer's films at page 6

Sorry, I don't care, as many things at Ilofrd's web site, it would not kill them to place a one-liner below what I was referring to, to go deeper for other films. Ilford seems to hide some important information from users, for whatever reasons they may have (like 6.5x9 sheet film ... available ... but NOT), or how ULF program is set up. I use their film, even if I see them chasing Kodak for price per roll award.

And I'm not coming a manufacturer doing the good for most of film shooters. To me Adox is now at top of supporting film photography, all else is secondary. Others may feel different. As for testing crazy for all films? I don't expect it. Massive, it appears, is making money on that and I won't even go into that portfolio, it's good it's there, then do some own testing to get where you need to get. It all kind of converges in the same place, no matter the method.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Sorry, I don't care, as many things at Ilofrd's web site, it would not kill them to place a one-liner below what I was referring to, to go deeper for other films. Ilford seems to hide some important information from users, for whatever reasons they may have (like 6.5x9 sheet film ... available ... but NOT), or how ULF program is set up. I use their film, even if I see them chasing Kodak for price per roll award.

And I'm not coming a manufacturer doing the good for most of film shooters. To me Adox is now at top of supporting film photography, all else is secondary. Others may feel different. As for testing crazy for all films? I don't expect it. Massive, it appears, is making money on that and I won't even go into that portfolio, it's good it's there, then do some own testing to get where you need to get. It all kind of converges in the same place, no matter the method.

I really don't understand all this "hate" agaist ilford but, hey, that's me.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

The bleach contains potassium permanganate. There are no other oxidant that dichromate, permanganate, cerium sulfate or H2O2 available.
So it's permanganate.
To me Adox has skipped the publication of the bleach MSDS because otherwise it would reveal the "three years of R&D" that extend considerably the shelf life of it. But we all know what's the secret ingredient is and why it extend the permanganic acid shelf life.

It just could be that the website manager of Fotoimpex has made available only MSDS of Part A of the new reversal kit on its website. I checked MSDS of Foma reversal kit on both Foma's site and Fotoimpex's site. On Foma's site, MSDS of all parts are available whereas on Fotoimpex's site only MSDS of Part A is available.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

It just could be that the website manager of Fotoimpex has made available only MSDS of Part A of the new reversal kit on its website. I checked MSDS of Foma reversal kit on both Foma's site and Fotoimpex's site. On Foma's site, MSDS of all parts are available whereas on Fotoimpex's site only MSDS of Part A is available.

Exacly.
Fotoimpex MSDS for the Adox Scala kit is incomplete imho

 

[Ian Grant]

If you download this https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1829/product/708/ there are the times for other manufacturer's films at page 6.
I'd agree 100% on the fact that testing a reversal kit for other films is practically impossible and a daunting task.
No other manufacturers recommed their kits with films other than that thei own.
Kodak Direct Positive Outfit and the latter Kodak T-max reversal kit
Foma reversal kit
Ilford reversal kit
Adox reversal kit

There are (were) other reversal kits made by.
Tetenal
Bellini foto
Photographer's fomulary

that can/could be used with other films but with mixed results imho.

Ilford have never sold a reversal kit, although they have a Datasheet on Reversal processing, and it was in many editions of the Ilford Manual of Photography as well.

Yes Ilford do list times for some other makes of film, but they don't include Adox or Foma films, and that data has been added to over the years after all Microphen was released in 1961, ID-11 in the 1930's, and Perceptol in 1969. In addition companies like Ilford, Kodak, Fuji and at one time Agfa would always be testing their competitors new films on release to see how they compared to their own.

It's also worth remembering that there's a lot more work and time involved in reversal processing so it would be time consuming for a small company like Adox. I'm sure people will try other films in the kit and perhaps post their findings here or on other sites.

Ian

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Is there a chance to see Adox Scala film in 120 format at some point?

 

[wyofilm]

Is there a chance to see Adox Scala film in 120 format at some point?

I don't know if their 120 slitting machine is still down for repairs.

Discussed here

 

[DeletedAcct1]

I don't know if their 120 slitting machine is still down for repairs.

Discussed here

They can also outsource the 120 slitting to Filmotec, for example...

 

[cmacd123]

They can also outsource the 120 slitting to Filmotec, for example...

just look at all the issues film ferrania has had in trying to get parts of their film finishing process outsourced, I doubt if outsourcing is always practicable. Only firm that was always ready to outsource steps was the Old Imation Ferrania, and much of the extra capacity that that plant had is either scrapped, or in storage.

in any case, filmotec may be able to slit film, but that have not indicated that they have any resources to further convert into still film sizes.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Well, one can always hope. Manufacturing is nothing if not problems and problem solving.

I don't know if their 120 slitting machine is still down for repairs.

Discussed here

 

[DeletedAcct1]

just look at all the issues film ferrania has had in trying to get parts of their film finishing process outsourced, I doubt if outsourcing is always practicable. Only firm that was always ready to outsource steps was the Old Imation Ferrania, and much of the extra capacity that that plant had is either scrapped, or in storage.

in any case, filmotec may be able to slit film, but that have not indicated that they have any resources to further convert into still film sizes.

Rollei for example outsources all their film lineup for slitting. Afaik they don't have in-house capabilities. Rollei didn't have a single problem. Why?
Ferrania had problems probably because of financial restraints.

 

[MattKing]

Rollei is just a brand, own(ed) by someone else.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

It's also worth remembering that there's a lot more work and time involved in reversal processing so it would be time consuming for a small company like Adox. I'm sure people will try other films in the kit and perhaps post their findings here or on other sites.

Completely agree. What is a lot of work and time consuming for Adox's small team of professionals is even more overwhelming for individuals. All this makes the imminent publishing of DR5 process a lot more exciting as DR5 has well-tested process for a whole bunch of films beyond Scala.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Rollei is just a brand, own by someone else.

Yes, it's owned by
HANS O. MAHN GmbH & Co. KG
who doesn't have slitting capabilities

 

[Alain Deloc]

Hi there!

@Team ADOX I read that the kit can develop only 8 rolls of 36 exp. Is this value fixed and the chemicals are dead after 8 rolls, or I could develop few more rolls extending some times for bleach or for first developer?
Thanks!

 

[lantau]

It just could be that the website manager of Fotoimpex has made available only MSDS of Part A of the new reversal kit on its website. I checked MSDS of Foma reversal kit on both Foma's site and Fotoimpex's site. On Foma's site, MSDS of all parts are available whereas on Fotoimpex's site only MSDS of Part A is available.

All the information is already there and has been mentioned in this thread. Team Adox has said the MSDS is complete as is. This means that in the bleach there is no sufficient concentration of any compound that would trigger a legal requirement for an MSDS.

The developer has an MSDS, because hydroquinone and other components havea documentation requirement at the concentrations used.

That is how the rules work. In the EU you can buy a 3% H2O2 solution but not a 30% one. As a private party, anyway.

They also said they have no trouble shipping this worldwide. Again this shows that this kit triggers no restrictions in this regard. Of course there may be a component in there, which would need to be documented under different circumstances.

C41 concentrates are hazardous materials with various requirements for labeling, shipping and providing MSDS. Working solutions have little restrictions. See what Compard says about their ready to go C41 kit in 500mL softbags. Those are already at working strength. (Sold by Maco Direct).

Edit: My kit has arrived, aleady. Unfortunately I'm traveling for work and will be back home for the weekend. I'm looking forward to reading the manual.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

All the information is already there and has been mentioned in this thread. Team Adox has said the MSDS is complete as is. This means that in the bleach there is no sufficient concentration of any compound that would trigger a legal requirement for an MSDS.

This explains the bleach 1+1 diluition figure: It's already very well diluited.
I infer also that the FD doesn't contain any silver halide solvent and this can explain the fact that it's been reused as SD.