New Adox “Color Mission” Film

[AgX]

At the start of this all at the begin of the month I stated for given reason that I refrain of revealing my opinion on the insolvencies.
Why not we all refrain from speculations and just wait what is going to happen? At the moment this speculating is going in circles anyway.

 

[Auer]

Amazing amount of angst when a new film shows up.

Glad I'm not in that business, don't know if I could handle all the hand wringing and lamentation.

 

[AgX]

Well, the story is more complex than a new film showing up. And with unclear stories emerging about same time it is not surprising that questions arise.

Sad is only that the resulting speculations leads to blaming each other.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Amazing amount of angst when a new film shows up.

Glad I'm not in that business, don't know if I could handle all the hand wringing and lamentation.

It's stupidity, ignorance and paranoia. And always from those who make the biggest fuss about film prices & how little film they actually use.

 

[Ten301]

It's stupidity, ignorance and paranoia. And always from those who make the biggest fuss about film prices & how little film they actually use.

I disagree, it’s not “stupidity, ignorance and paranoia”. May I suggest that you be less dismissive of your fellow members and give them a bit more credit? I believe it’s legitimate questioning when one considers that the story appears to be being used as a marketing tool to promote the film. As for the prices, those who have brought up the cost of shipping, mostly those living in the U.S., have a legitimate point. Not that Adox has control over that cost, they are simply stating the prohibitive cost of shipping will prevent them from ordering the film. Adox could, perhaps, mitigate that issue by having Freestyle be the official distributor here in the U.S., and maybe in time they will do that.

 

[lantau]

I disagree, it’s not “stupidity, ignorance and paranoia”. May I suggest that you be less dismissive of your fellow members and give them a bit more credit? I believe it’s legitimate questioning when one considers that the story appears to be being used as a marketing tool to promote the film. As for the prices, those who have brought up the cost of shipping, mostly those living in the U.S., have a legitimate point. Not that Adox has control over that cost, they are simply stating the prohibitive cost of shipping will prevent them from ordering the film. Adox could, perhaps, mitigate that issue by having Freestyle be the official distributor here in the U.S., and maybe in time they will do that.

Obviously its not smart to order only two rolls at these shipping costs. Right now you can only try to make a group buy, or see if you are able to make a large purchase across their other offerings. Fotoimpex is probably a lot cheaper than Freestyle.

Maybe they'll eventually make a deal with a few outlets around the world to act as a proxy into the respective market. It seems they want to keep most of the profit margin on this one to finance their colour R&D. Basically a donation with a reward. I believe charities sometimes use that model, giving you something for a donation. Or, as they say, their way of a Kickstarter.

About the bankrupt Innoviscoat: I can't find it at the moment and hope my memory isn't playing with me. Henning Serger might have written it here somewhere, or maybe someone else in the know. If I remember this correctly Innoviscoat went bankrupt quite early on. The business plan didn't quite work out. The new Polaroid took over the coating line, using an operating company with 'Inno' in the name, which is mostly used for their product. What was left of Innoviscoat is basically a fabless company, now, renting the line for their jobs. So this may be when this colour film was made.

Then I had some old memory from before I got into photography (I started late in life and only because, mostly, digital made it more interesting to me). Then, probably around 2011-12, I read about this company, Adox, which bought the old equipment from the bankrupt Agfa and made the Agfa b/w photopaper again. The former Agfa engineers helped them with their know how. For years I thought Adox is making their paper themselves in their own factory. Turns out they coated it at Innoviscoat. And Innoviscoat probably had the ex Agfa engineers. Maybe they left after this first bankruptcy, or the company that came out of the bankruptcy couldn't pursue this anymore. In any case, those guys may have been able, then, to somewhat recreate Agfa C41 films..

Keep in mind, this is from my memory of what I read maybe 1-3 years ago. Plus my speculation from that.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Maybe they'll eventually make a deal with a few outlets around the world to act as a proxy into the respective market.

Silverprint seem to be saying that they'll be carrying it in the UK,

About the bankrupt Innoviscoat: I can't find it at the moment and hope my memory isn't playing with me. Henning Serger might have written it here somewhere, or maybe someone else in the know. If I remember this correctly Innoviscoat went bankrupt quite early on. The business plan didn't quite work out. The new Polaroid took over the coating line, using an operating company with 'Inno' in the name, which is mostly used for their product. What was left of Innoviscoat is basically a fabless company, now, renting the line for their jobs. So this may be when this colour film was made.

I think Inoviscoat (and its siblings) been through a few reorganisations - and it's also worth noting that Orwo's then owners sold up in early 2020-ish, so there have probably been ongoing negotiations to iron everything out since then. I think would be fair to say that the step from Lomo Metropolis to a functional ISO 200 masked colour neg is not great. It may well have been that there was a need to use up materials to make a product, then external events caused all sorts of disruptions, delaying the release - and in the intervening, Adox made the decision that pursuing colour product research would be worthwhile (don't forget, they don't just have access to Agfa knowhow, but Ilford's colour coating knowledge too - Ilford made both dye bleach & chromogenic papers at Marly).

Then I had some old memory from before I got into photography (I started late in life and only because, mostly, digital made it more interesting to me). Then, probably around 2011-12, I read about this company, Adox, which bought the old equipment from the bankrupt Agfa and made the Agfa b/w photopaper again. The former Agfa engineers helped them with their know how. For years I thought Adox is making their paper themselves in their own factory. Turns out they coated it at Innoviscoat. And Innoviscoat probably had the ex Agfa engineers. Maybe they left after this first bankruptcy, or the company that came out of the bankruptcy couldn't pursue this anymore. In any case, those guys may have been able, then, to somewhat recreate Agfa C41 films..

Adox has one of the coating stations from the former Agfa Leverkusen film coating machine (the one that is becoming the Bad Saarow coater), Innoviscoat the other. Adox MCC was tollcoated at Inoviscoat initially - the original Agfa product had been made at a French Agfa plant that mainly served the printing industry & shut down in late 2020 (Pont-à-Marcq) - and now seems to be in the process of getting optimised for Adox's own machines (Marly initially) - from what I recall, there may be some material from the initial run available soon-ish (if a bit outside final aim specs). I think that Adox has been pretty open about how & where their materials have been made - it's just that they will have been much more subject to the business decisions/ NDA's etc of coating/ converting partners before they took more & more in-house.

 

[foc]

Silverprint seem to be saying that they'll be carrying it in the UK,



I think Inoviscoat (and its siblings) been through a few reorganisations - and it's also worth noting that Orwo's then owners sold up in early 2020-ish, so there have probably been ongoing negotiations to iron everything out since then. I think would be fair to say that the step from Lomo Metropolis to a functional ISO 200 masked colour neg is not great. It may well have been that there was a need to use up materials to make a product, then external events caused all sorts of disruptions, delaying the release - and in the intervening, Adox made the decision that pursuing colour product research would be worthwhile (don't forget, they don't just have access to Agfa knowhow, but Ilford's colour coating knowledge too - Ilford made both dye bleach & chromogenic papers at Marly).



Adox has one of the coating stations from the former Agfa Leverkusen film coating machine (the one that is becoming the Bad Saarow coater), Innoviscoat the other. Adox MCC was tollcoated at Inoviscoat initially - the original Agfa product had been made at a French Agfa plant that mainly served the printing industry & shut down in late 2020 (Pont-à-Marcq) - and now seems to be in the process of getting optimised for Adox's own machines (Marly initially) - from what I recall, there may be some material from the initial run available soon-ish (if a bit outside final aim specs). I think that Adox has been pretty open about how & where their materials have been made - it's just that they will have been much more subject to the business decisions/ NDA's etc of coating/ converting partners before they took more & more in-house.

Thank you for your detailed opinion and assessment, they are always welcome to read.

 

[adamlugi]

This may not be important , but some time ago I bought a few rolls of iso200 film that was supposedly from the Ferrania trial production of their own film.
Later it turned out from Ferrania information that this film does not exist. As I look at the samples it is quite similar to Adox. I will buy it and compare it.

 

[pentaxuser]

As Lachlan says I too can see a big order from several retailers such as Silverprint given the situation with the supply of C41 film. Those who have suspicions that this is effectively another left-over film or that ADOX is just not giving us the correct story about its origins and why it is now releasing it to the marketplace may never lose those suspicions - no matter what

If any have definite evidence of their suspicions then I am sure they will share it with us

pentaxuser

 

[flavio81]

Yet, InovisCoat still can’t do it? If they had it down back then, then why do they need all the funding for research to produce a color film now? I believe it’s far more likely that the film in those Adox Color Mission cans is a found master roll from Agfa Leverkusen or Ferrania, probably original Agfa Vista or Ferrania Solaris.

Henning Serger will come here and tell you what i'm going to tell you -- that the theory of "a found master roll" is highly higly unlikely for many reasons. And I believe HS.

Why is so difficult to believe Inoviscoat made this film? They have been making film these years, you see: the purple film, the color implosion, metropolis...

 

[flavio81]

It’s widely believed that Lomo Metropolis is InovisCoat’s work at getting to a ‘normal’ emulsion. If that was InovisCoat’s work with Adox years ago, they were already there way back then, right? Why doesn’t InovisCoat have that normal emulsion now?

Why do you assume "metropolis" was freshly made film? It's likely that on their way to a good C41 film they had to do many coating runs, one was metropolis, and then they improved and coated what's now known as "color mission". Etc.

 

[Ten301]

Why do you assume "metropolis" was freshly made film? It's likely that on their way to a good C41 film they had to do many coating runs, one was metropolis, and then they improved and coated what's now known as "color mission". Etc.

We can go in circles about this, but we’ll have to wait and see when actual rolls and results are in the hands of consumers.

The announcement from Adox stated this ‘mystery’ company that went bankrupt after the first trial run was their “coating partner”. That would imply that Adox actually manufactured the emulsion. Manufacturing color emulsions is technical business, it just doesn’t magically happen. Adox is not a huge company and, while the name has been in existence for centuries, this Adox isn’t the old Adox. Does the current Adox have the tech to manufacture a C41 compatible color emulsion? I think not, otherwise, they would not need to raise funds from ‘Color Mission’ for research for that stated purpose. So, obviously, if Adox is to be believed, their now-bankrupt “coating partner” must have been involved in much more than the coating.

Yes, I remain skeptical, perhaps even a bit cynical given the marketing liberties many have taken in general, and the financial gains Adox will benefit from specifically, but their backstory involving ‘Color Mission’ has enough contradictions and holes to send the red flags waving.

 

[twelvetone12]

If we want to get lost in semantics, Adox actually said "co-researched with and coated" by the other company.

 

[mshchem]

Oh Boy. So much speculation. The only thing we should focus on is a company, "is all in" with analog. Adox is actively working on a new color film. Adox is a unique company. Their chemical business is thriving, paper, film... And now, hopefully, the covid restrictions will be relaxed so travel to and from Switzerland, is possible.

Great things are coming.

 

[flavio81]

It’s been in cold storage for years, so says Adox. Why would a small company like Adox have attempted to produce a color film at a time when the demand for color films was dropping like a rock? It they wanted a color film that much, it would have made much more financial sense just to repackage an existing product.

There are some things you might not be taking into account.

Color film is not like a typical product where you need just the formula and the ingredients and anybody can make it provided you just put the money.

Color C41 film is a highly complex, difficult to make product that is based on propietary knowledge, held only by the very few manufacturers that had the know-how: Kodak, Ferrania, Agfa, Fuji, Sakura/Konica were the players.

Ingredients are not easy to be sourced, they have to be made in-house and the "formulas" need to be re-engineered for the specific coating machine and for the new environmental laws in effect right now. In other words, you simply can't look up to the "formula for -say- Kodak Gold 200" and get the ingredients and put them into your machine. It simply doesn't work like that in any way. Already forum member "Photo Engineer," Rowland Mowrey, RIP, former Kodak Engineer named in the patent of Kodachrome K14, explained this at length many times.

If you happen to have access to a team of engineers with the (secret) know-how and the (rare) coating machines and (expensive) facilities, and thus you have the potential to make C41 film, in a world where only two makers make it (Kodak, Fuji) and you DON'T choose to realize this potential, this potential of a clear competitive advantage over the rest of manufacturers (i.e. Foma, Ilford, etc), then you are not having too much "financial sense" or maybe "entrepreneurial sense".

Thus it made all the sense in the world.

 

[flavio81]

Adox has one of the coating stations from the former Agfa Leverkusen film coating machine (the one that is becoming the Bad Saarow coater), Innoviscoat the other. Adox MCC was tollcoated at Inoviscoat initially - the original Agfa product had been made at a French Agfa plant that mainly served the printing industry & shut down in late 2020 (Pont-à-Marcq) - and now seems to be in the process of getting optimised for Adox's own machines (Marly initially) - from what I recall, there may be some material from the initial run available soon-ish (if a bit outside final aim specs). I think that Adox has been pretty open about how & where their materials have been made - it's just that they will have been much more subject to the business decisions/ NDA's etc of coating/ converting partners before they took more & more in-house.

Thanks for this valuable info. Sorry, what's MCC?

 

[flavio81]

This may not be important , but some time ago I bought a few rolls of iso200 film that was supposedly from the Ferrania trial production of their own film.
Later it turned out from Ferrania information that this film does not exist. As I look at the samples it is quite similar to Adox. I will buy it and compare it.

Ferrania have been reasonably open with what they did and what they didn't, i have followed closely their updates for years, and if you're implying COLOR film, they never ever ever ever announced doing any trial production of color film in all these years. They only said they had the potential to do a small batch for the people that funded them via Kickstarter.

Then due to many circumstances, most of them reasons out of the control for the guys at Ferrania, they couldn't make this batch and now they have to start from zero to engineer a color film.

Sorry for the off topic.

 

[Ten301]

There are some things you might not be taking into account.

Color film is not like a typical product where you need just the formula and the ingredients and anybody can make it provided you just put the money.

Color C41 film is a highly complex, difficult to make product that is based on propietary knowledge, held only by the very few manufacturers that had the know-how: Kodak, Ferrania, Agfa, Fuji, Sakura/Konica were the players.

Ingredients are not easy to be sourced, they have to be made in-house and the "formulas" need to be re-engineered for the specific coating machine and for the new environmental laws in effect right now. In other words, you simply can't look up to the "formula for -say- Kodak Gold 200" and get the ingredients and put them into your machine. It simply doesn't work like that in any way. Already forum member "Photo Engineer," Rowland Mowrey, RIP, former Kodak Engineer named in the patent of Kodachrome K14, explained this at length many times.

If you happen to have access to a team of engineers with the (secret) know-how and the (rare) coating machines and (expensive) facilities, and thus you have the potential to make C41 film, in a world where only two makers make it (Kodak, Fuji) and you DON'T choose to realize this potential, this potential of a clear competitive advantage over the rest of manufacturers (i.e. Foma, Ilford, etc), then you are not having too much "financial sense" or maybe "entrepreneurial sense".

Thus it made all the sense in the world.

I believe I did take these things into account, directly and using much fewer words, with this one simple sentence from my previous post: “Manufacturing color emulsions is technical business, it just doesn’t magically happen.”

 

[flavio81]

I believe I did take these things into account, directly and using much fewer words, with this one simple sentence from my previous post: “Manufacturing color emulsions is technical business, it just doesn’t magically happen.”

Look at what you wrote after your sentence:

Manufacturing color emulsions is technical business, it just doesn’t magically happen. Adox is not a huge company and, while the name has been in existence for centuries, this Adox isn’t the old Adox. Does the current Adox have the tech to manufacture a C41 compatible color emulsion? I think not, otherwise, they would not need to raise funds from ‘Color Mission’ for research for that stated purpose. So, obviously, if Adox is to be believed, their now-bankrupt “coating partner” must have been involved in much more than the coating.

Despite saying "it just doesn’t magically happen", you are still understating the difficulty of creating a color emulsion. It is a process that takes years and partnerships. For me it's quite obvious that they need funds to continue the process of creating a good C41 film that can be economically and consistently produced in mass quantities.

"Have the tech" is a meaningless experssion in this context. You don't just simply "have the tech" or "not have the tech" with something as complex such as C41 film production.

 

[Willyekerslike]

Thanks for this valuable info. Sorry, what's MCC?

MCC is Marylebone Cricket Club. The world's most active cricket club and the owner of Lord's Ground. It is also the keeper of the Laws of the game.

 

[Nodda Duma]

To flavio’s point, the capability to make color film is not impossible, but it’s also not created by pushing the easy button. The capability must be organically grown, and it is not a magic, impossible process. It can be learned. That learning requires funding, company commitment, and time.

By the way that’s no different than any other high tech engineering development effort ever.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Thanks for this valuable info. Sorry, what's MCC?

Multi Contrast Classic. Agfa's version was on FB 110 (glossy) and 118 (lustre), Adox's have been on 110 and 112 (matte) - both without the toned base that Agfa used.

 

[Joerg Bergs]

We have tested the Color Mission in our lab. Here you can see some samples:

https://www.meinfilmlab.de/adox-color-mission-200/

 

[brbo]

Thanks!

Looks quite nice. The scans have the Frontier look (am I wrong?), so it's a bit hard to judge. Hope the film will print nicely in darkroom...

Anyway, if Adox is going to arrive at something like this in 4-5 years... this would be great.