Nervous about setting Paterson reels to 120

[BrianShaw]

Paterson's instructions say to use the swizzle stick only for the first short portion of the development, because if you use it for the entire time you may end up with uneven development.

Hi Matt. Yes, that’s what they say... but that’s not my experience. I’ll bet that if one exceeds “gentle” then bad things like surge marks could occur but I’ve never experienced them, or uneven results if one continuously agitated. I still wouldn’t invert (it just seems so extreme and unnecessary to me) and would opt for the figure-8 style swirl discussed earlier.

 

[MattKing]

I think the problem with only using the stick is most likely that it won't do a very good job of mixing and re-mixing thoroughly the fresh developer away from the film's surface and the partially exhausted developer with by-products that is adjacent to the film. Essentially the developer isn't sufficiently randomized through the process.
If, however, you also add figure-8 swirl movement of the entire tank to the mix, and you get the contents sloshing around a lot inside the tank, you can probably address that concern.

 

[BrianShaw]

I’m not going to debate, Matt... only want to say that I’ve not experience that which you are thinking is a possible problem. . I understand the conjecture... it’s just not been a problem in my experience. A bigger concern for me with that technique is remembering to rap the tank to dislodge air bubbles. Much easier to remember if one is picking up the tank to invert. Much easier to forget when the tank is left on the table.

 

[MattKing]

I have seen the problem of uneven development with agitation limited to the stick - my conjecture is about the mechanism.
It may be film and developer dependent.
I do have a couple of tanks that can't be inverted, so I use the figure 8 approach. Maybe add some of that in conjunction with a rap - to build the habit?

 

[ozphoto]

I have the old tanks - yeah those that leak like sieves when inverted, but have never had an issue with the "swizzle" stick method of processing. Tapping the tank has always been aprt of my routine - tap twice before starting to agitate, then tap again after the first 30 seconds. In almost 40 years of processing, I haven't had an issue with airbubbles or poor development, even with the largest of the Paterson tanks - the 8-reel monster.

You may be correct @MattKing, it may be "film and devloper dependent"; I'm interested to know if was it more apparant on some combinations than others?

 

[MattKing]

You may be correct @MattKing, it may be "film and devloper dependent"; I'm interested to know if was it more apparant on some combinations than others?

I don't have an answer. I haven't used the stick for a long time. I've seen it more with other people's film. It may also be inexperience related, in that I've seen it more with beginners' films (who may have been twirling to fast and hard).
It is one of those lessons that I learned a long while ago and was confirmed by the manufacturer's instructions, so I considered the issue as being determined.

 

[ozphoto]

I don't have an answer. I haven't used the stick for a long time. I've seen it more with other people's film. It may also be inexperience related, in that I've seen it more with beginners' films (who may have been twirling to fast and hard).
It is one of those lessons that I learned a long while ago and was confirmed by the manufacturer's instructions, so I considered the issue as being determined.

Yes, I've seen some beginners processing their films (in the new tanks) like they're shaking martinis - and the results have been, shall we say, rather interesting? Admittedly, I haven't used the "twirl" method with the new tanks, only the oldies; I only used those in college and then used the inversion method, but definitley no martinis being made in my tank at the time.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I've never had an issue, neither have the thousands of high school students I've taught over the years... and they're rough on stuff like gorillas

 

[Deleted member 88956]

I have compared reels made in last 5 years to ones from about 30 back. New are made of different material, flex substantially more, and are more difficult to clip together and unclip. Not sure which ones OP has in use, but if newer ones, then I can see the worries as taking them apart is not as smooth as with the older.

 

[BrianShaw]

shaking martinis

Oh, my word... not another rabbit hole for us to go down. Ha ha ha.

 

[davela]

I opened up my new Paterson plastic reels to the 120 size a few times, and It made me very nervous.

Any history of breakage?

I was contemplating getting another set of reels and dedicate these to 120.

I was gifted a Kindermann vintage steel reel, but my dry-run practice was not very pleasant...

I do it all the time - works great. I love Paterson products!

 

[LimeyKeith]

I have compared reels made in last 5 years to ones from about 30 back. New are made of different material, flex substantially more, and are more difficult to clip together and unclip. Not sure which ones OP has in use, but if newer ones, then I can see the worries as taking them apart is not as smooth as with the older.

I agree completely. My 40+ year old and badly colour-stained reels are still in use I have no worries about splitting them apart but the opaque white plastic modern ones I was gifted give me the twitches when I split them apart wherein they squeal like fingernails on a blackboard and feel so fragile so I try not to use them. I'm guessing the original reels were made with a nylon based material which seems to have a self lubricating property whereas the modern ones feel like a poly-carbo-whats'it type stuff that goes brittle after a few years. Just guessing though ...

 

[guangong]

The OP says that he already has steel reels. Practice loading his steel reels. Steel easier to clean and dry. There is a knack to it, so practice until able to gain the knack. Practice with undeveloped film since processed film looses curl, which is chief impediment to successful loading. However, curl can be a problem with plastic reels also, so they also require a little more practice with 120.
For penance he can load Minox and Minolta 16 film on tiny plastic and steel reels. For grievous sins try loading 50 ft of Super8 on a Lomo reel without uttering a string of expletives.

 

[jay moussy]

OP, here, I have come to live with my (newer) Paterson reels and their need for the noisy, odd twisting to change size or take-apart.

As a beginner I also do semi-stand dev. with Caffenol or Rodinal (R09), with timed, gentle twisting, and it seems to work so far, thanks to the high level of tolerance in modern film technology?

 

[Dali]

Me too...everytime...for over thirty years on this set of reels.

Same thing. Never had a issue in almost 40 years now.

 

[StepheKoontz]

I found the trick to leaking is to "burp" the lids like you do with tupperware. Pushing in on the top while lifting an edge before sealing creates a slight vacuum than keeps the lid from leaking.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I found the trick to leaking is to "burp" the lids like you do with tupperware. Pushing in on the top while lifting an edge before sealing creates a slight vacuum than keeps the lid from leaking.

+1. This works even with heated chemistry (C-41, for instance), which otherwise tends to expand the air in the tank and push the cap off. May need to be repeated after the first inversion cycle and partway through the process, in the warm-chemistry case.

 

[MattKing]

I've used both the older Paterson reels and the newer ones. They look a little different, sound a little different and open and close slightly differently, but I've never encountered any difference in how well they work or how strong they are - I've never encountered a broken or bent one.
It is a good idea though to check that the ball bearings are moving easily before you load film.

 

[braxus]

Matt. Which version of tank did I end up getting from you? The System 4 or Super System 4? It looks like the Super, but I don't know what the old one looked like.

 

[MattKing]

You have two of the "Universal" version of the Super System 4 - they have the Tupperware type lids.
Here is a poor image of the older System 4 tanks - actually the 4th version of the tanks. They were discontinued in 1981:

Everything you ever wanted to know about the history of Paterson tanks: https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Paterson/Developing_Tanks.html