Mixing Chemicals & Developing First Roll of B&W

braxus · Oct 11, 2020

This brings up something I should ask, since I will be moving from this place in a year or twos timeframe. My bathroom sink is porceline with some chrome by the drain. Will chemicals harm the sink or drain, or even the plastic pipes? Im using Xtol, Ilfostop, Ilford Rapid Fix, and Photoflo.

MattKing · Oct 11, 2020

braxus said:
This brings up something I should ask, since I will be moving from this place in a year or twos timeframe. My bathroom sink is porceline with some chrome by the drain. Will chemicals harm the sink or drain, or even the plastic pipes? Im using Xtol, Ilfostop, Ilford Rapid Fix, and Photoflo.

Generally no, although the concentrated Ilfostop might be tough on the chrome.
Just be sure to clean up any drops or spills as you go, and clean up normally after each session wit some soap and water.
As for vinegar, white vinegar is probably fine. When I last did the math, it worked out to be slightly more expensive than stop bath, takes more storage space, and lacks an indicator.

Sirius Glass · Oct 11, 2020

braxus said:
I have read someone using vinegar for stop bath instead of buying it. They mixed it 1 to 4. Would this be a good idea since I have white vinegar, or should I just stick with the Ilford stop formula?

Oh yes because stop bath with indicator is just so damned expensive!

Donald Qualls · Oct 11, 2020

White vinegar you get at the supermarket is food grade, so won't contain anything harmful to humans (probably nothing harmful to film, either). It's generally distilled acetic acid diluted with pure water to 5% acidity; dilute 1+3 from that strength with water and it'll pass for stop bath (though without an indicator, you might want to one-shot it).

Indicator stop bath is actually cheaper, because it lasts and you can tell when it's gone off (the indicator turns blue/purple, looks black under safelight), so you can use it up before you dump it. I went cheaper than that; bought a bottle of 75% strength acetic acid (cleaning supply) on Amazon and sourced a little bottle of bromocresol purple (also on Amazon), which is the indicator used in the commercial variety. When the bottle I had in my storage since 2007 finally turns color, I'll mix mine to correct strength and add enough indicator to give it the right color, and probably use it for another couple years (for film; paper carries over a lot more developer and the alkalinity kills the stop bath eventually).

Pentode · Oct 11, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
Oh yes because stop bath with indicator is just so damned expensive!

Wow... miss your nap today, Sirius?

Donald Qualls · Oct 11, 2020

MattKing said:
Generally no, although the concentrated Ilfostop might be tough on the chrome.

FWIW, common drain openers come in two varieties: lye solutions strong enough to burn your skin or eat holes in your clothes, and sulfuric acid strong enough to burn you skin or eat holes in your clothes. Neither one will damage even plastic pipes if you follow directions, though you shouldn't let them stand on modern plastic sinks if you can avoid it.

BrianShaw · Oct 11, 2020

I keep the water running as I drain tanks and for a few minutes after.

Sirius Glass · Oct 11, 2020

Pentode said:
Wow... miss your nap today, Sirius?

Sorry I keep forgetting to put up warning sign from pending sarcasm since it evidentially goes over your head.

Pentode · Oct 11, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
Sorry I keep forgetting to put up warning sign from pending sarcasm since it evidentially goes over your head.

I don't think it went over anyone's head. Just seemed like a pretty snarky response to what seemed like a pretty innocent question.

Sirius Glass · Oct 11, 2020

Pentode said:
I don't think it went over anyone's head. Just seemed like a pretty snarky response to what seemed like a pretty innocent question.

If you look back over past post about saving money by using vinegar instead of stop bath, you will find that I often said that to point out that the use of vinegar to save money is a fool's errand. The statement would bring laughter to PE during such discussions. There are much better ways to save money in photography.

braxus · Oct 11, 2020

I dont have any issues buying stop. Its only 10 bucks here for a bottle of it.

Вormental_old · Oct 11, 2020

@braxus something I learned about stop baths here on photrio: there are two types: acetic acid based and citrix acid based. Both work fine for B&W films but using citric acid stop bath is NOT recommended for color negative films, if you ever decide to try that also. So you may want to consider switching to acetic acid-based stop (Kodak's)

It's worth mentioning that C41 does not really call for a stop bath, as you pour bleach right after the developer, but plenty of people here recommend adding a stop bath because most are using C41 kits that come with a "blix" as opposed to the separate bleach/fix steps and (supposedly) a stop bath helps.

braxus · Oct 11, 2020

I don't plan on doing color film here myself. Just B&W.

grat · Oct 12, 2020

One other advantage of Ilfostop over vinegar: The lack of smell.

Donald Qualls · Oct 12, 2020

grat said:
One other advantage of Ilfostop over vinegar: The lack of smell.

Ilfostop is citric acid based?

Personally, I like the smells of stop bath and fixer. To me, it's not photography if I can't smell the chemicals.

MattKing · Oct 12, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Ilfostop is citric acid based?

Yes.
Which is why it smells a lot less, and can't be stored at working strength for very long.
I use acetic acid based stop for film because of economy, and citric acid based stop for prints in trays because of smell.

Donald Qualls · Oct 12, 2020

Acetic acid all the way for me. Never tried citric acid -- never saw the point.

PhotoJim · Oct 12, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Acetic acid all the way for me. Never tried citric acid -- never saw the point.

The vinegar smell of an acetic acid stop bath can get jarring to the nose after awhile for most. If you aren't terribly sensitive to it, then there may not be any huge benefit.

The citric acid one is a little easier on the environment to manufacture, too, if that matters to you.

russell_w_b · Oct 13, 2020

I've stopped the developing process either chemically or with two minutes' worth of tap-water rinsing at dev. temperature instead. I've seen absolutely no difference to the finished neg. I'll use stop bath if the women are in the bathroom then I can guarantee constant water temperature. Fortunately, I'm not on a water meter!

Donald Qualls · Oct 13, 2020

PhotoJim said:
The citric acid one is a little easier on the environment to manufacture, too, if that matters to you.

It does matter, but one must also consider other factors about the process (as I did when I kept driving my old van for many years, comparing fuel consumption and emissions of the manufacturing process as well as in operation). With an indicator, I can use the same stop bath (for film) many times -- I've got two liters mixed up from Kodak concentrate that was used (an unremembered number of times) before my hiatus, sat in storage for twelve years, and is still fine after being used a couple dozen times since my restart. For prints, I can see citric acid potentially having some environmental advantage, because the stop gets used up relatively rapidly.

I haven't checked -- does citric acid have a low enough pH to use with an indicator like bromocresol purple (the one in acetic based indicator stop bath)?

MattKing · Oct 13, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
I haven't checked -- does citric acid have a low enough pH to use with an indicator like bromocresol purple (the one in acetic based indicator stop bath)?

I'm not sure which indicator dye is used in Ilfostop, but it is a citric acid based stop and does have a purple indicator, so....
By the way, working strength citric acid based stop bath provides an excellent environment for mould growth - you can't store it for very long. I will generally keep it for no longer than a couple of days, and only when I plan to do some printing on those days.
I use the Kodak acetic acid based stop for film, and mix up and store a 1+3 stock solution that keeps without problem for weeks or months.

A lot of my procedures evolved because I don't have a permanent darkroom, and use bathrooms and kitchens as needed.

Donald Qualls · Oct 13, 2020

IIRC, bromocresol purple changes at about pH 5.2, at which point acetic acid is well on the way out. Most likely citric acid has lower pH than that as well. But, as you note, citric acid is a nutrient for mold growth; another reason to prefer acetic acid for stop, if you can tolerate (or enjoy) the odor. I mix my stop bath from concentrate when I need another bottle fulls; the concentrate bottle needs little storage space and keeps virtually forever.

MattKing · Oct 13, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
the concentrate bottle needs little storage space and keeps virtually forever.

It also is the only chemical I use regularly that will damage a laminate kitchen countertop if I spill a drop and don't clean it up promptly.
And the concentrate is really strong, in a catch at the back of your throat way, so measuring out 8 ml to make a half litre of working strength stop isn't a particularly joyous experience.
So I minimize the number of times I experience it, by making up a half litre of stock (1 + 3) every once in a while.
In other words, adapt what you do to your own needs and preferences - within reason.

Donald Qualls · Oct 13, 2020

MattKing said:
In other words, adapt what you do to your own needs and preferences - within reason.

And until your know what your needs and preferences are, there are generally good reasons behind "standard practices."

braxus · Oct 17, 2020

If I mix up only a 500ml amount of fixer, use and pour back into a 1L bottle for reuse later, will it go bad quickly if half the bottle is full of air? Or should I just mix up 1L and only use the portion I need, then pour it all back in there?

Mixing Chemicals & Developing First Roll of B&W

braxus

MattKing

Moderator

Sirius Glass

Donald Qualls

Pentode

Donald Qualls

BrianShaw

Sirius Glass

Pentode

Sirius Glass

braxus

Вormental_old

braxus

grat

Donald Qualls

MattKing

Moderator

Donald Qualls

PhotoJim

russell_w_b

Donald Qualls

MattKing

Moderator

Donald Qualls

MattKing

Moderator

Donald Qualls

braxus

Mixing Chemicals & Developing First Roll of B&W

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency