MF cameras with mechanical shutters?

[hpulley]

try to test a mamiya super 23 with a ground glass back. Sweet setup for landscapes with the 100/3.5. 6x9 is also alot more negative real estate.

Thanks but they seem rare within a couple of hours drive of here.

At this point it looks like a no brainer, a 3 lens 2-back Mamiya RB67 kit though the Hasselblad is the classic and I have a line currently on a 6x6 enlarger with 80mm SC lens. If I go for 6x7 I'd be cropping or looking for another enlarger. The 6x7 enlarger I can find is a Vivitar with 75mm Nikkor lens which sounds worse? Can't see any 6x9 enlargers around.

 

[stradibarrius]

The RB67 is such a flexible camera system. Different back for different formats, different VF's, outstanding glass, Plenty of parts and pieces available. Also it has the ability to focus very close to the subject.

 

[olleorama]

Thanks but they seem rare within a couple of hours drive of here.

At this point it looks like a no brainer, a 3 lens 2-back Mamiya RB67 kit though the Hasselblad is the classic and I have a line currently on a 6x6 enlarger with 80mm SC lens. If I go for 6x7 I'd be cropping or looking for another enlarger. The 6x7 enlarger I can find is a Vivitar with 75mm Nikkor lens which sounds worse? Can't see any 6x9 enlargers around.

I have had both the Hasselblad (a 500CM) the RB and currently the super 23. I feel like I have gained a lot with every system change. The 6x7 format is a lot better than 6x6 IMO, and of course YMMV, there are as many squareists as there are croppers. I had constant problems with my backs with the hasselblad, probably because they were old and former owners had skipped maintenance. I have no complaints on the RB system, I really liked it. I sold it to finance my ventures into LF, which proved not to be my thang (mainly due to developing and film costs), I needed something like a rangefinder at times, for fast shooting, and something like a view camera for more contemplative shooting. Enter the 23... Which also, like the RB has amazing close up possibilities. What's with mamiya and the bellows fixation anyways? The rb, rz, c-series, super 23...

I don't really miss the RB, but if I had to chose between the 500 series hasselblad and the RB I'd go RB everytime. I would easily go with the vivitar enlarger. If you don't you'll always wonder how it would be to print 6x7-

A small ps, I've shot quite a few rolls with the hasselblad in temps down to -42 centigrade with wind, I didn't have a problems with slow speeds. Except for a back that broke, but that would probably had happen anyways.

 

[markbarendt]

Even a Holga can beat your Nikon? I find that surprising. By reputation their optics are poor but perhaps I've heard wrong. The price seems to be right. Which Holga do you have?

The bare bones plastic lens 120N.

It doesn't happen all the time but the center of the Holga's view is quite sharp.

Caveat, I'm not an F-64 type guy the soft edges and built in vignetting don't bother me a bit.

This effect can make for less work at the enlarger in many shots.

This camera makes snaps look really cool.

but I've never, ever worked with larger negatives so I may not know what I'm missing.

It's not just the negative, composing is such a pleasure on an RB's ground glass.

Thus I want to try 120 but I don't want to invest a lot because I don't want something that is an order of magnitude harder.

If there is no rush, MF isn't really that hard, by this I mean only that it takes some practice and planning and certain subjects may be tougher.

At a drag race, a 35mm camera with a motor drive is a great choice.

Doing a portrait of a willing subject in the pits or a landscape shot tough changes the equation, 10 shots of a single subject is about right. With 35mm I find it tough to fill a roll with a single subject, that means I waste some film or have film "stuck in the camera" waiting for another subject.

The other thing to keep in mind along this line is that because of the differences in the look, the constraints, and the logistics of MF; you will think differently when you use it.

What I'm saying is that once you get a feel for an RB or a Holga you will find you reach for them for the personality they bring to certain shooting situations.

 

[Ric Trexell]

You will still need a lgiht meter.

No one seems to mention that when you go to a mechanical shutter you probably won't have a built in light meter. I use a RB67 Pro S with the waist level finder, but have a handheld flash/light meter. That ofcourse uses batteries, but you can have it hang inside your jacket until you want to use it. If you are outside on a sunny day you could probably get by with the sunny 16 rule. I have used Minolta X-700's for the last 25 years and started to lose interest in battery powered cameras when twice I walked a good distance only to find out my battery was dead. Of my two X-700's, one jammed up the other day but since I bought it new 25 years ago, I'm not going to get it repaired. I will probably get a manual Nikon 35mm when the other X-700 goes, or just use the Pro S. I feel I have lost the feel of photography since going to those auto X-700's and want to get back to deciding my own settings and not just relying on a computer to make the call. If you get a camera like the RB67 series, (I would suggest the Pro S) you can get a viewfinder with a light meter but you will be paying more for it and might better put that money into a handheld meter. (This is my most humble opinion.)

 

[narsuitus]

Even though I use both manual/mechanical cameras and automatic/electronic cameras, I have a bias in favor of the manual/mechanical ones. Here are the medium format ones I have used and loved:

Mamiya C3 6x6cm medium format TLR
Mamiya C22 6x6cm medium format TLR
Mamiya C220 6x6cm medium format TLR
Fuji 6x7cm medium format rangefinder
Fuji 6x9cm medium format rangefinder

 

[hpulley]

I have my old Instamatic X-15F which is square 26x26mm format and I believe the 43mm f/11 lens is plastic and yet I like the images it makes. Enlarging them to 8x8" is useless but when not enlarged to point out its flaws there is a neat quality to the toy camera so perhaps I'd enjoy a Holga. However, for the camera I am looking at getting today I want something that is sharp rather than dreamy in quality.

My manual Canon bodies are dropping like flies on me but I do enjoy shooting with them. I have a lazy shutter TX, now a sticking mirror TX with an off meter and my AE-1 is giving me its usual battery fits so I just have one working FTbN at the moment, the other FTbN's shutter blew out years ago. I have my Canon EF stuff for high frame rate autofocus.

I'm sure the RB or the Hasselblad will again let me take different pictures.

6x7 printing to 8x10 and 11x14 sounds good.

OK, going to check out a RB67 with 65/90/180 2x120 back kit tomorrow afternoon.

The Vivitar VI enlarger with 75mm El Nikkor is still available too so must take a look at it as well.

 

[jglass]

Price Stability: Hasselblad the Leica of MF?

My take on the RB vs. Hasselblad is that the latter will hold it's resale value better so that, if you don't like it, you can probably sell it on in a year or two for a very similar price, assuming you haven't abused it. Thus, you are merely loaning the higher price -- to yourself. Not sure if you can say this about an RB.

I KNOW you can't say this about the Bronica SQ-Ai I just sold for a loss, compared to a few years ago. Prices seem quite depressed in Bronica and other makes, with exceptions. One of those exceptions is Leica. I would expect another exception to be Hasselblad, regardless of whether either deserve the esteem!

This is how I looked at it when I bought an M4 a few months ago. Anybody disagree that Hasselblad is kind of the Leica of MF, in terms of value stability?

 

[hpulley]

You're right, Hasselblad is timeless it seems. The one I may look at was made in 1971 according to the serial number though I thought the 500C was only made to 1969? So perhaps it is a 500C/M. Either way it does make me a bit worried, the other ad for a 500C recommands a CLA for it and at 40 years old it probably needs it. With my old Canons falling apart I wonder if the UV serial coded 500C is still a worthwhile purchase? It will likely only hold its value if it works.

 

[markbarendt]

My take on the RB vs. Hasselblad is that the latter will hold it's resale value better so that, if you don't like it, you can probably sell it on in a year or two for a very similar price, assuming you haven't abused it. Thus, you are merely loaning the higher price -- to yourself. Not sure if you can say this about an RB.

The prices of the RB & Hasselblad kits are so different that I'm not sure how much that matters.

 

[CGW]

My take on the RB vs. Hasselblad is that the latter will hold it's resale value better so that, if you don't like it, you can probably sell it on in a year or two for a very similar price, assuming you haven't abused it. Thus, you are merely loaning the higher price -- to yourself. Not sure if you can say this about an RB.

I KNOW you can't say this about the Bronica SQ-Ai I just sold for a loss, compared to a few years ago. Prices seem quite depressed in Bronica and other makes, with exceptions. One of those exceptions is Leica. I would expect another exception to be Hasselblad, regardless of whether either deserve the esteem!


This is how I looked at it when I bought an M4 a few months ago. Anybody disagree that Hasselblad is kind of the Leica of MF, in terms of value stability?

None of this stuff is an investment--what's the annual rate of return? It's a poor store of value, so it's confounding that anyone would expect a used camera purchased at retail 2-3 years ago to hold its value, much less appreciate. The Hasselblad/Zeiss mystique aside, there are issues like service costs/availability for all these cameras. The wave of pro abandonment of MF is long passed that flooded the market with goodies at unimaginable prices. Now prices are dropping even faster as labs vanish and the allure of MF fades. I knew something was very wrong when I bought a boxed NOS Mamiya RB67 Pro S body+WLF+120 back for 120 bucks. I'm just not sure that anything apart from collectible quality gear will be worth much when homebrew B&W developing+printing is the only easily available and affordable option. We're way beyond the tipping point.

 

[lxdude]

I KNOW you can't say this about the Bronica SQ-Ai I just sold for a loss, compared to a few years ago. Prices seem quite depressed in Bronica and other makes, with exceptions. One of those exceptions is Leica. I would expect another exception to be Hasselblad, regardless of whether either deserve the esteem!

Prices on the SQ and other Bronicas have pretty well stabilized, along with the incredibly cheap RB's and others. I wouldn't worry about losing much if any now. My Bronica equipment has not devalued since I bought it used a year and a half ago. It's now possible to put together a kit for not much dosh. The Hasselblad bodies are cheap too-the lenses are most of the expense.

 

[msa]

Pretty much any TLR...

 

[aluncrockford]

I suggest you look at the Hasselblad C series it will last forever and you will not have to sell what ever you bought before you realised that the best MF camera is not the one you own . combine any Hasselblad with a 45% prism and you have a camera that will cover any situation, also older c lenses will give you results that will be as good as anything available today.

 

[hpulley]

By the Hasselblad C series do you mean the 500C, 500C/M, 501C, 501C/M?

I am also looking at a Hasselblad 500C which was made in 1971 but has the user interchangable viewfinder and date code of the C/M. Interesting and probably much lighter than the Mamiya RB67 beast though my EOS-1N RS with 8 AA cells and 100-400mm zoom lens actually weighs about the same, 3kg so I'm not sure that I'll find a Mamiya RB67 with speed finder that heavy after all. I will have to handle both MF cameras to see how I feel about them.

Perhaps one lensing the Hasselblad for a while would be OK but I know I am going to want the 50mm Distagon if I keep it, in addition to the 80mm Planar.

 

[hpulley]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone! Too bad I could just get one...

I picked up a Mamiya RB67 kit tonight with two 120 backs; a Polaroid back (with Polaroid film in it); 65mm, 90mm, 127mm and 180mm lenses; Flash Bracket RB; Prism finder; and some expired T-Max 100 and Kodak C41 which is probably fogged to heck but I can use it as practice in loading and running this camera before I get down to business with fresh film. I actually picked up a few rolls of Fuji and Kodak C41 expired 120 before I went for the same reason though it doesn't really look as difficult to load the film as I thought it would be. I'll need practice loading 120 reels at least. Must try that Polaroid back but I expect the film is probably dead...

 

[Sirius Glass]

You have chosen a square slr so that leaves Hasselblad, Rollei, Mamiya and Bronica. I have a Hasselblad 503 CX which is all mechanical. Backs can be cleaned and adjusted - all brands. I am happy with the Hasselblad. You will still be able to get parts and service for the Hasselblads. For longevity of parts and service, Hasselblad wins. Hasselblads have the largest system available.

Steve

 

[hpulley]

I thought I'd chosen square but I chose rectangular instead. I went with the Mamiya as I was able to get a full 4 lens kit for about the price of a 1-lens Hasselblad basic kit.

 

[CGW]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone! Too bad I could just get one...

I picked up a Mamiya RB67 kit tonight with two 120 backs; a Polaroid back (with Polaroid film in it); 65mm, 90mm, 127mm and 180mm lenses; Flash Bracket RB; Prism finder; and some expired T-Max 100 and Kodak C41 which is probably fogged to heck but I can use it as practice in loading and running this camera before I get down to business with fresh film. I actually picked up a few rolls of Fuji and Kodak C41 expired 120 before I went for the same reason though it doesn't really look as difficult to load the film as I thought it would be. I'll need practice loading 120 reels at least. Must try that Polaroid back but I expect the film is probably dead...

Nice. Let me know if you need any help sorting it. I've gotten reasonably good at resealing backs--something yours might need if they're Pro or Pro S models.

 

[hpulley]

Nice. Let me know if you need any help sorting it. I've gotten reasonably good at resealing backs--something yours might need if they're Pro or Pro S models.

Thanks for the offer. This is a Pro S. I'm going to run some of that expired film through it and see what I get. How do I know if a back needs resealing?

 

[hpulley]

The polaroid film seems dead, I get pure white pictures, not surprising really given its age? Yes, I took the dark slide out...

 

[hpulley]

Mamiya RB67 kit by Harry Pulley, on Flickr

 

[CGW]

Thanks for the offer. This is a Pro S. I'm going to run some of that expired film through it and see what I get. How do I know if a back needs resealing?

The thin foam strips at the hinge and clasp on the shell enclosing the film insert compress and melt. Same goes for the foam gasketing on the rotating back surface that mates with the back. Light leaks usually show up as vertical or horizontal streaks--try shooting both orientations in bright sun with no shadows on the camera. If they're leaky, you'll know.

You might want to get another 120 Pro S back--don't bother with the older Pro backs since you lose double exposure lock-out. The ability to swap film types mid-roll is possibly what you'll like the most about the RB67.

 

[hpulley]

The thin foam strips at the hinge and clasp on the shell enclosing the film insert compress and melt. Same goes for the foam gasketing on the rotating back surface that mates with the back. Light leaks usually show up as vertical or horizontal streaks--try shooting both orientations in bright sun with no shadows on the camera. If they're leaky, you'll know.

You might want to get another 120 Pro S back--don't bother with the older Pro backs since you lose double exposure lock-out. The ability to swap film types mid-roll is possibly what you'll like the most about the RB67.

Yeah, the foam is pretty much shot on them as you predicted. I only have two 120 backs right now so I'll need to get them fixed one at a time unless I can do it myself. I just dropped off the first C41 roll off for processing since I don't have a 120 reel yet to process my TMAX 100 (ordered one but hasn't arrived, might have to pick up a plastic tank and reel at the store in the mean time).

I should pick up more backs for sure, I can see using even 5 backs at once (low, med high speed B&W, low and high speed color). It is nice to be able to swap different types and speeds of film at any time. With 35mm I use multiple camera bodies at times to do the same thing but it is simpler for sure to just change backs rather than having to swap bodies.

The rotating back is really cool! Just put it on a tripod and compose and rotate if needed. The double-exposure lockout and blank frame prevention is nice too as I've heard it was very easy to do both on the previous version. I guess the SD version is even better. So far it seems like the workflow is fairly simple, with the lockouts if you forget to do something then nothing happens and you have to think, "what did I miss?" Darkslide still in? Haven't wound the film? Haven't cocked the shutter?

For hand held use the flash bracket is really good too though it is kind of weird that it is left handed. In a way it is nice to be able to support most of the weight with the right hand though it is backwards compared to 35mm.

 

[CGW]

Yeah, the foam is pretty much shot on them as you predicted. I only have two 120 backs right now so I'll need to get them fixed one at a time unless I can do it myself. I just dropped off the first C41 roll off for processing since I don't have a 120 reel yet to process my TMAX 100 (ordered one but hasn't arrived, might have to pick up a plastic tank and reel at the store in the mean time).

I should pick up more backs for sure, I can see using even 5 backs at once (low, med high speed B&W, low and high speed color). It is nice to be able to swap different types and speeds of film at any time. With 35mm I use multiple camera bodies at times to do the same thing but it is simpler for sure to just change backs rather than having to swap bodies.

The rotating back is really cool! Just put it on a tripod and compose and rotate if needed. The double-exposure lockout and blank frame prevention is nice too as I've heard it was very easy to do both on the previous version. I guess the SD version is even better. So far it seems like the workflow is fairly simple, with the lockouts if you forget to do something then nothing happens and you have to think, "what did I miss?" Darkslide still in? Haven't wound the film? Haven't cocked the shutter?

For hand held use the flash bracket is really good too though it is kind of weird that it is left handed. In a way it is nice to be able to support most of the weight with the right hand though it is backwards compared to 35mm.

A couple backs are enough for starters. Otherwise, it's easy to have several with partial rolls that never seem to get finished.Lose the box end or paper with the film type from the memo holder and you're guessing with more than two! You can get a ProS manual online here if you don't have one:

http://www.cameramanuals.org/mamiya_pdf/mamiya_rb67_pro-s-1.pdf