Meter Mania

wiltw · Apr 20, 2023

abruzzi said:
I’ve always wondered how good spot meters are at rejecting light outside of the circle? I’ve never really tested, but it’s not uncommon for that darkest part of my scene to be pretty close to the lightest part 6 or 7 stops away. You’re saying the Reveni doesn’t exclude out of frame light as well as other spot meters?

I did the test for you!
I have the Minolta Spotmeter F. It has a one-degree spot (green circle in the drawing)

If I point the spot at a halogen MR16 profile bulb, and the MR16 falls entirely within the spot circle (spot circle at the green circle), my meter reads f/32. + 0.8EV.
If I place the spot circle at the light blue area (and the halogen bulb falls where the green circle shows, adjacent) it reads f/2.0 + 0.3EV.
If I place the spot circle anywhere in the yellow area, it reads f/2.0 + 0.1EV

madNbad · Apr 20, 2023

wiltw said:
I did the test for you!
I have the Minolta Spotmeter F. It has a one-degree spot (green circle in the drawing)

If I point the spot at a halogen MR16 profile bulb, and the MR16 falls entirely within the spot circle (spot circle at the green circle), my meter reads f/32. + 0.8EV.

If I place the spot circle at the light blue area (and the halogen bulb falls where the green circle shows) it reads f/2.0 + 0.3EV.

If I place the spot circle anywhere in the yellow area, it reads f/2.0 + 0.1EV

That's a great illustration! The last spot meter I owned was a Sekonic 408. Good idea of combining the 308 with a spot meter but the spot meter had a 5º angle of acceptance. It was fine for my needs, except the copy I owned had seen a hard life. Fuzzy spot meter and fading LCD. Even if the Reveni isn't a true 1º spot meter, it's small, light and will be good enough for my needs.

Paul Howell · Apr 20, 2023

I think what surprises me is how many of the selenium cell meters are still working and accurate. The meter on my Retina IIIC is starting to fade, but many of the Westons now close to 80 years old are still within a stop.

madNbad · Apr 20, 2023

Paul Howell said:
I think what surprises me is how many of the selenium cell meters are still working and accurate. The meter on my Retina IIIC is starting to fade, but many of the Westons now close to 80 years old are still within a stop.

In 1965 my oldest brother bought a 8mm Bolex and a Gossen Pilot light meter. Both my brother and the Bolex are gone but I still have the little Gossen in its gray clamshell case and it matches my brand new Sekonic L-308X on most readings.
Much of it depends on how the selenium meters were stored. Unlike keeping a camera in a case is almost a guarantee for fungus, the old meters seem to thrive.

snusmumriken · Apr 21, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
This thread reminds me of the old saying that if you have a watch, you know what time it is. If you have two watches, you never know what time it is.

For me, comparing meters is a confidence-destroying exercise, presumably because they don’t quite measure the same thing. I find the (free!) iPhone app Zone View very helpful in that respect. It was written by a Photrio contributor, Jouni Erola.

Chuck_P · Apr 21, 2023

This analog Pentax 1 degree spot meter has served, imo, flawlessly, since I purchased it for $25 in 2006.

madNbad · Apr 21, 2023

Chuck_P said:
This analog Pentax 1 degree spot meter has served, imo, flawlessly, since I purchased it for $25 in 2006.

View attachment 336316

Great meter! Owned two in the past but a bit of overkill to carry with a Leica M.

Alan9940 · Apr 21, 2023

madNbad said:
Great meter! Owned two in the past but a bit of overkill to carry with a Leica M.

I used a Pentax Digital Spot when carrying my M6 for many years until I really learned how to use and rely on the internal meter of this camera. If I owned an M sans meter, I'd probably carry my Reveni Spot.

madNbad · Apr 21, 2023

Alan9940 said:
I used a Pentax Digital Spot when carrying my M6 for many years until I really learned how to use and rely on the internal meter of this camera. If I owned an M sans meter, I'd probably carry my Reveni Spot.

Somewhere in this thread, it’s mentioned the only cameras I currently own are a M4, M4-2 and my scanning camera a Sony A7II. The Reveni will arrive next week to supplement the L-308.

snusmumriken · Apr 21, 2023

Alan9940 said:
I used a Pentax Digital Spot when carrying my M6 for many years until I really learned how to use and rely on the internal meter of this camera. If I owned an M sans meter, I'd probably carry my Reveni Spot.

Please write an essay on how to do this! I do rely on the M6 meter, but it gets very tricky in some situations.

madNbad · Apr 21, 2023

snusmumriken said:
Please write an essay on how to do this! I do rely on the M6 meter, but it gets very tricky in some situations.

The meter in your M6 works by light coming through the lens and reflected off of the white dot on the shutter curtain to the meter sensor which is just below the rangefinder mechanism. The original MR meters were designed as a semi spot meter based on the angle of acceptance on a 90mm lens. You could toggle your frame selector to bring up the 28/90 frame lines then use the 90mm lines to target your subject and take a reading.

If you are close enough to the subject, take several reading and average them.

Consequently, when I owned my first M6, I used a lot of Kodachrome and Ektachrome reversal film and always had good results from just the cameras' meter. I've been at it for years and and still learning and experimenting.

Alan9940 · Apr 21, 2023

snusmumriken said:
Please write an essay on how to do this! I do rely on the M6 meter, but it gets very tricky in some situations.

Don't know that it would take an essay, but IMO the M6 meter leans heavily towards a strong center-weighted meter. Like any meter--handheld or in-camera--one needs to learn which situations affect the reading in such a way to produce an incorrect reading. I've been enjoying this hobby for over 50 years and long ago I played a game with myself in that I'd try to guess the exposure first, then meter it out. Over time, I could guess proper exposure in most any lighting situation that I might find myself. Therefore, when using the M6 meter I already have a pretty good idea of what the exposure should be. If the M6 meter gives me a reading I don't expect, I adjust.

snusmumriken · Apr 21, 2023

madNbad said:
If you are close enough to the subject, take several reading and average them.

Unfortunately this is the problem I frequently encounter: it’s impractical to approach. I am in the shade and my subject is on the other side of the street in sunlight. Or vice versa. And there isn’t time to take several meter readings or bracket exposures.

Alan9940 said:
IMO the M6 meter leans heavily towards a strong center-weighted meter.

Actually it genuinely is a hard-edged spot. You can test this by setting the camera up on a tripod facing a blank wall and using a penlight or (better) a laser pointer to explore the edges of the spot. The viewfinder LEDs show when you have found the edge.

Sadly, I don’t seem to have acquired a good sense for light levels. I guess it’s a bit like musical perfect pitch: some folk just never acquire it. I don’t have either.

madNbad · Apr 21, 2023

snusmumriken said:
Unfortunately this is the problem I frequently encounter: it’s impractical to approach. I am in the shade and my subject is on the other side of the street in sunlight. Or vice versa. And there isn’t time to take several meter readings or bracket exposures.

Actually it genuinely is a hard-edged spot. You can test this by setting the camera up on a tripod facing a blank wall and using a penlight or (better) a laser pointer to explore the edges of the spot. The viewfinder LEDs show when you have found the edge.

Sadly, I don’t seem to have acquired a good sense for light levels. I guess it’s a bit like musical perfect pitch: some folk just never acquire it. I don’t have either.

If you own a hand held meter it would be worth your time to leave the camera home and practice metering. If you watch old videos of street photographers like Joel Meyerowitz, he uses a Sekonic Studio Deluxe and often meters the palm of his hand for a reading. The other suggestion is to get a grey card, an often underutilized tool. This will help establish middle gray and you can adjust your exposures from there. Photography is a science as well as an art. It’s learning how one benefits the other.

Paul Howell · Apr 21, 2023

It that case learn Sunny 16. While in college and in Air Force we learned Sunny 16. Our unit had both Nikon F, standard prism, and Leica M2 and 3, we did have a couple of meters but in the field only used the meter for color slides. A friend who I knew in the AF, he got out and started a studio in San Francisco, retired early to move to New Mexico, he recently passed, his widow sent me his Nikon F, unmetered. I've been shooting Foma 400 rated at 250 and using Sunny 16, negatives are pretty good. I do have my Weston V in the bag with the Inversacone in case I run into a backlite or sidelight scene.

Alan9940 · Apr 21, 2023

snusmumriken said:
Actually it genuinely is a hard-edged spot. You can test this by setting the camera up on a tripod facing a blank wall and using a penlight or (better) a laser pointer to explore the edges of the spot. The viewfinder LEDs show when you have found the edge.

Hmm, never done that but my experience leads me to believe that it leans towards being a spot, but isn't in the traditional sense. Honestly, even the spot meters I own aren't really precisely 1 degree. The most accurate meter I ever tested in that regard was the SEI. I could easily and accurately read small bright areas in clouds.

chriscrawfordphoto · Apr 21, 2023

Paul Howell said:
Here is an image of some of my meters. Not included is the Soligar spot meter, a few more Westons, a Vivitar and a Bower, the spot meter is the boot of my SUV with some LF gear. The Weston V is shown with the inveracone, the GE which I do not know the model number is show with the cover off. sitting above the main body of the meter. Of all these I perfer the Weston V, it can be used with one hand. The Gossen although quite accurate needs to 2 hands to get the LEDs just right. In the bottom right are a Sekonic and Norwood Directors. My understanding is that Sekonic bought Norwood and moved the factory to Japan? Although the dome is quite yellow from age it is still spot on.

Your GE meter is either a DW-58 or a DW-68. They look nearly identical and were very, very popular. They're a lot more common than the PR-series GE meters, but I have never encountered one that is still accurate.

Sekonic bought the Studio Deluxe design from Norwood. The Norwood versions were made in the US; production moved to Japan when Sekonic bought the design. Norwood made another incident meter that was more oriented toward cinematography. Manufacture of that one was eventually taken over by an American company called Photo Research, which renamed it the "Spectra Professional." Photo Research was later renamed Spectra Cine and they made the Norwood-designed meter until the 1980s. They also made a series of other Cine meters like the Spectra Combi II and Spectra IV-A.

Paul Howell · Apr 22, 2023

Thanks for the information.

BrianShaw · Apr 22, 2023

That Norwood (etc) product history is fascinating. A testament to the enduring utility of that design. Just recently I had reason to review Donald Norwood’s patents. Those clearly show his genius and clarity of thought/intent.

Chan Tran · Apr 22, 2023

Speaking of incident exposure meter I think the Minolta Auto Meter II is really cool with its motorized scale.

250swb · Apr 23, 2023

I have a Pentax Spotmeter complete with a zone scale and I've never used it (too big). I have a new KEKS accessory shoe meter and I've never used it (too small). I have various Leica meters that are unusable because of failure, and likewise Weston Meters. A Gossen DigiPro F rarely gets used (annoying). But the jewels of my collection are the humble Sekonic L-308B and L-208. The batteries last forever, they are easy to stuff in a bag, they are light, and just feel bombproof. I'd be very upset if my L-308B was damaged, lost, or it failed because it's been my most used meter with LF, MF, and 35mm for over 23 years.

madNbad · Apr 28, 2023

The Reveni Spot Meter arrived today! Took some advice from other members and made sure to order a set of caps to protect the display from direct sunlight. It’ll be a nice addition to the L-308 and I doubt if I will be looking at other spot meters.
As for my credit at KEH, they had a black Voigtlander Color-Skopar 50 2.5 LTM. Owned a silver one once and always regretted selling it.

Randy Stewart · May 1, 2023

Steven Lee said:
I've been considering getting one. Love the simplicity of it. One thing I don't understand is your "Zone modified" comment. People say this often about this meter, but I fail to understand what does it mean? It's a simple EV scale... ready to be used with the zone system. What is there to modify?

The Pentax Spot Digital was/is notorious for the inaccuracy of its respond to colors. Fred Picker, Zone VI Studios, was a photographer and photo teacher who would buy up spot meters, tear them down and replace the internal filters factory installed to adjust the color response of the meter, recalibrate for his filter set (generally loosing a one to two stops of working sensitivity), reassemble, then add a Zone System coded exposure scale. He then resold them with a leather holster and a $150-200 price markup. Whether they were worth the modifications was a running industry debate at the time. He did the same thing with the much more pedestrian Soligor Digital meter as well. The objection of shops to repair these meters today is probably just that they have no "factory" technical information to reference for adjustment standards, and they just are not worth the time it would cost to feel your way though the circuit settings and calibrate one of these things for a one-off job.

chriscrawfordphoto · Jun 4, 2023

Randy Stewart said:
The Pentax Spot Digital was/is notorious for the inaccuracy of its respond to colors. Fred Picker, Zone VI Studios, was a photographer and photo teacher who would buy up spot meters, tear them down and replace the internal filters factory installed to adjust the color response of the meter, recalibrate for his filter set (generally loosing a one to two stops of working sensitivity), reassemble, then add a Zone System coded exposure scale. He then resold them with a leather holster and a $150-200 price markup. Whether they were worth the modifications was a running industry debate at the time. He did the same thing with the much more pedestrian Soligor Digital meter as well. The objection of shops to repair these meters today is probably just that they have no "factory" technical information to reference for adjustment standards, and they just are not worth the time it would cost to feel your way though the circuit settings and calibrate one of these things for a one-off job.

A couple years ago, I did an extensive set of tests comparing the regular Pentax Digital Spotmeter, the Zone VI Pentax Digital, the spotmeter in the Sekonic L-758DR, and the Gossen Ultra Spot 2. I tested their color sensitivity, infrared sensitivity, and flare.

Color sensitivity of the regular Pentax and the Sekonic were almost identical. The Zone VI Pentax was 1/3 stop less sensitive to red and 1/3 stop more sensitive to blue compared to the unmodified Pentax and the Sekonic. I think the Zone VI is best for older B&W films like Tri-x and FP-4, while Sekonic and the standard Pentax are better for color photography and Kodak's Tmax films.

You can see the full data set and info on my test methods here:

Spotmeter Color Sensitivity

crawfordphotoschool.com

BrianShaw · Jun 4, 2023

Great information; thanks, Chris!

I skimmed your study. Lots to take in, which I’ll do when I’m not squinting at a cell phone. Given the era the meters were made, and Pickers predilection toward B&W… your conclusion, above, seems completely rational !

Meter Mania

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