Looking to begin (again) reversal processing black and white film

[Pixophrenic]

R 100 on the left, Superpan 200 / Aviphot 200 on the right side, both straight out of hypo fixer, 10min fix time.

So tell me more how this film can be developed as negatives, I'm all ears.

From a purely theoretical viewpoint, this discussion was on the wrong track from the beginning, suggesting to use bleach before development. An entirely different way exists in using "chromogenic developer" (Jacobsons' "Developing" 18th edition, page 223 onward) and then dissolving/blixing the silver image along with the antihalation layer, leaving the dye negative intact. Just my 2 cents, never tried this myself.

 

[Anon Ymous]

From a purely theoretical viewpoint, this discussion was on the wrong track from the beginning, suggesting to use bleach before development. An entirely different way exists in using "chromogenic developer" (Jacobsons' "Developing" 18th edition, page 223 onward) and then dissolving/blixing the silver image along with the antihalation layer, leaving the dye negative intact. Just my 2 cents, never tried this myself.

This would require sourcing couplers, which isn't a trivial task.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Nice to know that such a workflow exists, but in practical terms it still holds: you cannot use R100 as a regular BW film. But you can use regular BW film to create slides.

 

[1957ExaktaVarexIIa]

Does anyone here have a favorite developer for reversal processing B&W film?

Since last year I have been using the method which a movie film guy named Friedemann Wachsmuth has developed (sorry that the article is in German, maybe Deepl translator might help - please be sure to read all the comments also).
I've developed about 35 rolls of 135 film and get nice results.

Friedemann recommends Tetenal Dokumol for both developing baths. He says that it's also possible to use Tetenal Eukobrom, to get softer contrasts.

I have not yet tried Eukobrom but I want to do sometime.

Also, a few side questions: What is your favorite film to use for reversal processing?

• My working film is Fomapan R100, ISO 100/21°.
• There are reports about Fomapan R100 that had been pushed up to ISO400/27°. I've tried last year but I suppose that my first development time was too long. Want to try again soon.
• I'd also like to try Tri-X-Pan and (daring ) Ilford Delta 3200.
• Rollei Infrared 400 with 720 nm filter: very nice. But the delicate emulsion must be handled with extreme care during the process!
• Last year I've tried old (!) Agfapan APX 100 (from 2008 or so) with nice results. Today's APX can't be reversed any more, as I read.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Today's APX can't be reversed any more, as I read.

Says who?

 

[1957ExaktaVarexIIa]

Very sorry, I don't remember where I found it on the web, some 2 or 3 years ago...

 

[Ivo Stunga]

No apology needed - one can reverse just about any film to BW slides.

 

[Pixophrenic]

This would require sourcing couplers, which isn't a trivial task.

True. This route is pretty much inaccessible for a home user. But there is an accessible but much less elegant, IMO, way. It assumes that the AH layer is made from very fine grained silver that could be selectively blixed (reduced), before developed negative is affected. This means developing and fixing the film normally then applying a dilute reducer and watch the AH layer change density. How wide is this window, I have no idea. I anticipate that this can be done, but a lot of testing is involved (choice of developer, choice of reducer, time, agitation, etc).

 

[Donald Qualls]

True. This route is pretty much inaccessible for a home user. But there is an accessible but much less elegant, IMO, way. It assumes that the AH layer is made from very fine grained silver that could be selectively blixed (reduced), before developed negative is affected. This means developing and fixing the film normally then applying a dilute reducer and watch the AH layer change density. How wide is this window, I have no idea. I anticipate that this can be done, but a lot of testing is involved (choice of developer, choice of reducer, time, agitation, etc).

I've read of people doing exactly this with R100, as well as with Kodachrome, which has a colloidal silver filter layer (to obtain B&W negatives). I haven't tried it myself, however.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Interesting, didn't know that. But knowing this film, I'd ask: why?

- It's not the cheapest film out there;
- It's not the most capable film out there (lack of revolving power in projection application);
- very soft emulsion, prone to scratching;
- It has plenty of emulsion defects from factory, again and again...

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

- It's not the most capable film out there (lack of revolving power in projection application);

This point is interesting. Did you have noticed some softness of the image? Some out-of-focus -ish?

 

[Ivo Stunga]

This point is interesting. Did you have noticed some softness of the image? Some out-of-focus -ish?

Precisely. It's as if the film is at different focal plane or something.

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

Precisely. It's as if the film is at different focal plane or something.

Me too I've notice that and I was wondering if it was my camera or the slide projector...

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'd ask: why?

If you're referring to my mention of Foma R100, one reason you might use it for negatives is if you shoot a 16 mm camera that needs sprocket holes; this is one of only a few black and white stocks available in small quantities for single perf and double perf 16 mm (as well as double 8) -- but many folks who shoot, say, a Rollei 16 won't want slides half the dimension of a 35 mm, but would rather have a negative from which to make prints. Sure, Kodak and Ilford make B&W movie films, but Kodak's minimum order is huge and the stuff isn't commonly stocked at the regular still film dealers, while Ilford appears to make this only during the annual "ULF custom cut" event.

If your projected slides are just a little out of focus, look for curved film or film that was mounted backward (if the image on screen is mirror imaged, the latter is almost certain). If refocusing fixes the blur, these are the culprits and it's not a camera or film problem, but rather a projection issue.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

It's 100% film issue in 135 as no other film I've tried exhibits this property and it turns out I'm not alone to notice that.

Projector is modified for very fine manual focusing and having shot thousands of slides I'd think I'd recognize an inverted slide and not by focusing.

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

If you're referring to my mention of Foma R100, one reason you might use it for negatives is if you shoot a 16 mm camera that needs sprocket holes; this is one of only a few black and white stocks available in small quantities for single perf and double perf 16 mm

Just recently Foma itself has marketed two new negatives film for this pourpose...

FOMAPAN Cine 100

FOMAPAN Cine 100 is a panchromatically sensitized black-and-white negative film. It is primarily intended for shooting with a film camera, negative processing and subsequent digitization (scanning, post-production). It is characterized by low granularity, high resolving power, contour sharpness...

www.foma.cz

FOMA Cine Ortho 400

FOMA Cine Ortho 400 is a special orthochromatically sensitized black and white negative film. It is primarily intended for shooting with a film camera, negative processing and subsequent digitization (scanning, post-production). It is characterized by good resolving power and contour sharpness...

www.foma.cz

 

[Donald Qualls]

At those links, Foma doesn't do a good job of making it clear what cine formats they offer, but 16 mm single- and double-perf are the most common.

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

At those links, Foma doesn't do a good job of making it clear what cine formats they offer, but 16 mm single- and double-perf are the most common.

Packaging
FOMAPAN Cine 100 is produced and supplied in the following sorts:
- In the width of 16 mm one-edge perforated, in the length of 30.5 m
- In the width of 16 mm both-edge perforated, in the length of 30.5 m
- In the width of 16 mm, type 2x8 mm (standard), in the length of 10 m
Upon agreement with the manufacturer, the type of DS 8 mm can also be supplied.

Packaging
FOMA Cine Ortho 400 is produced and supplied in the following sorts:
- in the width of 16 mm one-edge perforated, in the length of 30.5 m
- in the width of 16 mm both-edge perforated, in the length of 30.5 m
- in the width of 16 mm, type 2x8 mm (standard), in the length of 10 m

What's that's not clear?

 

[Donald Qualls]

What's that's not clear?

Only that I didn't see a link that led to that information. It's what I expected, though -- 16 mm single- and double-perf (the formats most submini shooters want), and double-8 (the minimum order for DS8 is probably more than anyone I know would be willing to pay, but from Foma isn't likely enough to put off a budding cinematographer). Added to the R100, that gives Foma a pretty good range of B&W cine films.

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

Only that I didn't see a link that led to that information. It's what I expected, though -- 16 mm single- and double-perf (the formats most submini shooters want), and double-8 (the minimum order for DS8 is probably more than anyone I know would be willing to pay, but from Foma isn't likely enough to put off a budding cinematographer). Added to the R100, that gives Foma a pretty good range of B&W cine films.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Foma has two sites:

homepage

Traditional Photosensitive Materials Manufacturer - FOMA BOHEMIA Ltd.

Manufacturer, NDT systems, dental, B&W photomaterials - - all the company FOMA BOHEMIA Ltd.

www.foma.cz

and web store

FOMA BOHEMIA e-shop

producer of black & white photo materials, films, papers, processing chemicals

fomaobchod.cz

 

[Donald Qualls]

@Alessandro Serrao Data sheets is where I'd usually expect to find information like H-D curve, developing times, reciprocity correction, etc. I'd normally expect a list of available formats to be separate from that.

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

@Alessandro Serrao Data sheets is where I'd usually expect to find information like H-D curve, developing times, reciprocity correction, etc. I'd normally expect a list of available formats to be separate from that.

Ilford does it like Foma and Fuji did it like Foma.
So what's the problem with that, Donald?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Nothing, it's all down to me not having thought to look at the data sheet link for supported formats.