Looking to begin (again) reversal processing black and white film

[Philippe-Georges]

There is a procedure with some home brewed baths, by AGFA-Gevaert which was originally intended for the famous AGFA-Gevaert Dia-Direct film (and Agfapan 25), which can be done at room temperature (20°C).
The Neutol developer can be substituted by a Dektol type developer, and the Acidofix by any traditional acetic fixer.
I have done it so many times on Ilford's Delta 100 @ box speed (120 rolls and 4"x5" sheets) with very pleasing results: https://www.photoeil.be/books/dieter-roth.html.

PS: sorry for it is in Flemish/Dutch.

 

[guangong]

Foma did make a Fomapan Reversal film, sold by B&H, that was abruptly discontinued. That Foma film did have a clear base. I haven’t made BW slides since.
For movie film I use Kodak D-19. Discontinued by Kodak, but I understand that it is marketed by Photographers Formulary. When needed I mix my own.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Discontinued? Since when? I bought bulk roll in nice tin about a year ago - sadly it's about the only great thing I can say about R 100 - the lack of resolving power and coating problems leave me wanting more, shows up nicely in huge projection magnification.
Here's a link to the manufacturers e-store:

FOMAPAN R 100

producer of black & white photo materials, films, papers, processing chemicals

fomaobchod.cz

There are MANY OTHER clear base films out there. And clear base isn't a prerequisite for BW slides, just makes them nicer.

My faves being Aviphot 80 and 200 incarnations.

Here's a list of 135 clear base films:
Adox CMS 20 Pro II
Adox CHS 100 II
Adox Scala 50 / HR-50
Fomapan R 100
JCH Street Pan(?)
Rollei Infrared 400
Rollei Superpan 200
Rollei Retro 400S
Rollei Retro 80S
Rollei Ortho 25 Plus
Rollei RPX 25
Astrum/Svema FN 64, Foto 100, Foto 200, Foto 400

There might be more.

 

[relistan]

Foma produces the 100 R on clear basis in 35 and 16 mm.

Yes,and that film is quite a special reversal-only film

 

[Anon Ymous]

And you can ofcourse develop it as negative if you so wish.

Have you tried it as a negative?

 

[darkroommike]

No love for Kodak and the good old days? Way back when Kodak made a direct Positive Kit for reversal processing. First version was for High Contrast Copy Film and Panatomic-X. Later the instructions changed to recommend TMax100 and Tech Pan. See j87. The products are all dead as a dodo (except TMax100) but Kodak seemed to recommend TMax100 as a reversible film and that film at least is still around. I also have a copy of the old Dignan 150 formulas book that has some other alternatives. https://125px.com/docs/unsorted/kodak/j87.pdf

 

[Ivo Stunga]

And you can ofcourse develop it as negative if you so wish.

Are you sure? What about the silver based / water insoluble antihalation layer that's said is in need to be bleached away? There's no bleach stage in regular BW development.

That said, I have no use for negs, therefore I haven't tested this myself, just read a bunch online.

Can you show us your R 100 negs with phone/digital camera, as is? What developer was used, what times?

 

[Ivo Stunga]

No love for Kodak and the good old days?

Does Kodak offer regular 135 BW film with clear base today? Say ISO 50+

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Said by who?

Foma by extrapolating from the only viable processing shown on their data sheet - Reversal where Bleach step is clearly involved.

We can extrapolate further from the datasheet:
"Fomapan R 100 is a black-and-white reversal film intended for taking black-and-white transparencies and/or making movies."

We can take into account even indirect evidence:
- Every other manufacturer out there shows compatibility with plethora of standard developers and processes, giving dilution and times. Why would Foma avoid this - don't they like increased sales?
- Foma does like sales, therefore it does the same for their negative films.
- In The Massive Dev Chart Fomapan R 100 doesn't exist. Why would that be if it's a standard film on clear base? Adox HR-50 is the same thing as Scala 50 and is listed there, and Scala line is historically renowned for their reversal properties. Another example - Rollei Superpan 200 too is marketed for reversal. Both HR-50 and Superpan 200 originate from Aviphot Pan line of aerial films on clear PET base (so did the epic Scala 160/Silvermax 100). They're listed just fine, because their AH layers are water soluble and they wash away with regular processing, coloring the liquids nicely. I can continue...

No

Therefore I'd avoid making strong statements without hard evidence - brings nothing but confusion to the table.

 

[koraks]

Said by who?

Many people have complained about excessively dense negatives when trying to process Fomapan 100R as a negative film. This is because of the anti-halation layer, which consists of metallic silver. It won't be removed in regular negative processing, but it's bleached in the reversal bleach and can then be fixed out.

I don't know if the formulation of Fomapan 100R has changed at any point to a different form of anti-halation, but I doubt it, since it would make the film very similar to regular Fomapan 100 and it doesn't make much sense to have two virtually identical products in the lineup.

 

[guangong]

Discontinued? Since when? I bought bulk roll in nice tin about a year ago - sadly it's about the only great thing I can say about R 100 - the lack of resolving power and coating problems leave me wanting more, shows up nicely in huge projection magnification.
Here's a link to the manufacturers e-store:

FOMAPAN R 100

producer of black & white photo materials, films, papers, processing chemicals

fomaobchod.cz

There are MANY OTHER clear base films out there. And clear base isn't a prerequisite for BW slides, just makes them nicer.

My faves being Aviphot 80 and 200 incarnations.

Here's a list of 135 clear base films:
Adox CMS 20 Pro II
Adox CHS 100 II
Adox Scala 50 / HR-50
Fomapan R 100
JCH Street Pan(?)
Rollei Infrared 400
Rollei Superpan 200
Rollei Retro 400S
Rollei Retro 80S
Rollei Ortho 25 Plus
Rollei RPX 25
Astrum/Svema FN 64, Foto 100, Foto 200, Foto 400

There might be more.

 

[guangong]

Of course every BW film can be developed as a reversal film, but best results are from film with a clear base. There is even a noticeable difference between films on a safety film base compared with earlier films on a nitrate base. In early 1950s the MOMA still occasionally projected early movies on nitrate base. I was able to watch a few. They had a unique sparkle. For practical conservation these films have been transferred to safety film.
Thank you for the correction regarding Foma R. For last few years I have not shot still reversal films because involved with other projects, so, not being a user, was not aware of the reintroduction of Foma R.
Good to know that Foma R comes in 120. When I have time, would like to shoot some 67 slides.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

If we can extrapolate from the fact that a film is intended to be processed as reversal and to make transparencies and films that the halation is silver, than e.g. ORWO did it the entire time with their UP line of films and did not know? Fact is you could develop those as negative too.



When you present me what Foma has to say about the subject, I will accept that as a statement. Unti than you can call the above as evidence as long as you wish, it still remains speculation. (Speaking about bringing hard evidence and some table.)
If we begin to speculate:
- Why should Foma not state their antihalo is silver based? They could use that to ask more for this film. So I also can ask "Why would foma avoid this"?
- Seems Foma has a silver mine in the basement.
- From the fact that in the same data sheet they mention all their other film can be developed by their process we can construct indirect evidence, they want to sell developing kits.
etc.

In my opininion this is urban legend. Sure the myth of a unique film, made by nobody like this in the entire universe, is convenient for Foma, therefore I am not surprised about mushy statements like "very efficient antihalo layer". Did anybody see a producer stating he has a very inefficient antihalation?

Sure, bro...

Pay for shipping and I'll mail you a bulk rolled 135/36 to test out. Or even two, as I don't like this film much. Are you up to it?

You'll shoot it and develop it in your fave soup, and state your process, dev times and so on - for all of us. And provide pics, and phone pic of resulting negatives.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Maybe someone else is willing to provide such a test too?

 

[relistan]

It is neither special or reversal only.
In 16 mm (that is also 8 mm to be split up) reversal is the norm for amateurs. And you can ofcourse develop it as negative if you so wish.

It is reversal only. It has a mask that you must remove with bleach. You cannot develop it as normal film. And it is special because of that mask.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Heh, didn't know this and would love to experience it. It's only logical to assume that the material light travels through can contribute its properties to the picture. Maybe there's a perceivable difference in PET vs clear Triacetate, today? Hmmm.

Maybe that's the secret behind my love for Aviphot films, maybe that's why Kodak replaces their film base to PET, and not only due to the mechanical strength and heat resistance?

All about... nitrate film

Everything you need to know about the beauty and explosive danger of nitrate film, from how we look after it to the filmmakers who’ve been inspired by it.

www.bfi.org.uk

 

[DareFail]

Said by who?
The data sheet states: "Due to a very efficient antihalo layer, situated between the base and emulsion layers, the film features very good resolving power and high contour sharpness. The antihalo layer will decolorize during processing"



No. Too hard to come by locally for using it as negative, especially given I have enough film I can use for negative and I don't expect this one to offer some advantage in this regard.

I can develop Fomapan R100 in C41 and produce colors but i don't want to.. i already have some Gold 200 and I don't expect R100 to offer some advantage...

So... i have never tried R100 as a b/w negative. I have some left and i can try 2-3 frames. Give me your best/suitable developer and times to try it.

 

[Anon Ymous]

So... i have never tried R100 as a b/w negative. I have some left and i can try 2-3 frames. Give me your best/suitable developer and times to try it.

You can cut a small piece of it and just dip it in fixer for some minutes. What does the fixed film look like?

 

[Ivo Stunga]

You can cut a small piece of it and just dip it in fixer for some minutes. What does the fixed film look like?

Neat, simple idea, I like these - I'll do this this evening with hypo fix

 

[Ivo Stunga]

When you present me what Foma has to say about the subject, I will accept that as a statement

Forgot to answer to this. The answer is: sure, manufacturer's data on their product is to be taken +- at face value unless you're Rollei Analog (and other smaller liars that hide their film origin, usually being Aviphot Pan 80 and 200) that just keep making stuff up for no valid reason.
And Foma says that only compatible process for R 100 is reversal - right there, on the datasheet where no other process/developer is mentioned

Let's see how that fixer test will look like with R 100 Vs Superpan 200 / Aviphot 200

 

[guangong]

Can you describe the difference more accurately? How did this sparkle manifest and what do you think was the reason nitrate base film did so?
I ask as I saw movie pictures on nitrate and also think they had a different look, but I never was sure this could be attributed to the medium they were projected from. In fact I always told myself it is illogical that to be the reason.

The nitrate base was as clear as glass, other film bases clear, but not quite as clear. That’s my explanation.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

R 100 on the left, Superpan 200 / Aviphot 200 on the right side, both straight out of hypo fixer, 10min fix time.

So tell me more how this film can be developed as negatives, I'm all ears.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Thanks for edit, mod - I just have 0 tolerance towards the behavior some members are displaying here so confidently.

You missed a free film, @Eugen Mezei

 

[DareFail]

R 100 on the left, Superpan 200 / Aviphot 200 on the right side, both straight out of hypo fixer, 10min fix time.

So tell me more how this film can be developed as negatives, I'm all ears.

Because you can't, it doesn't mean that he can't too
Give him a film to show you how to!

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Yeah, maybe he has access to some magical, metallic silver dissolving water, who knows.