Longevity of toning solutions?

[Fatih Ayoglu]

Buying larger sheets and cutting them tends to be cheaper (per sheet or square m) Maybe buy 11x14 and cut that in smaller sizes?

 

[dcy]

The best news, however, is that in general, a bleach of this composition tends to be stable for years, even in solution. I've never had one go bad and some of them I've had around literally for years. I generally don't use carbonate in them though; it's not needed. IDK to what extent the carbonate may affect stability; I frankly expect it doesn't matter either way.

Yeah. None of the recipes I saw online had carbonate. No idea what it's for.

I was happy to see that the ingredients for the bleach are all stuff I have at home. I have potassium ferricyanide for cyanotype and potassium bromide for PC-TEA and E-72. The only thing in the kit that I can't find easily is the Sodium Sulfide. When I finish this kit, I'm going to switch to the Thiourea-based formula where all the ingredients are easy to find and apparently it smells less.

 

[koraks]

Sounds great! Thiourea sepia toner is very flexible. https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/shades-of-brown-controlling-sepia-toning-hue/

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

As mshchem noted, toning works best with warm-tone papers. Try selenium with Ilford Multigrade Art 300, kinda pricey, though - a warm tone RC should work well enough.

Ilford's 'Cool Tone' papers don't tone well in selenium.

A good disquisition on thiourea & sulfur can be found here https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Brown-Toning.pdf

You might try 'Polytoner' - a mix of selenium and Kodak Brown Toner.

 

[koraks]

As @mshchem noted, toning works best with warm-tone papers.

No to be flippant, but 'best' is kind of difficult in a context of aesthetics. Personally, I really like how Fomabrom (not a warmtone paper) tones in either sepia or selenium, or, preferably, both. Fomatone (arguably the most readily-toning paper on the market) responds entirely differently and can be beautiful, too - but in a totally different way. Which would be 'best'?

You might try 'Polytoner' - a mix of selenium and Kodak Brown Toner.

If this is similar to his 'Carbon' toner (and it sure sounds that way as a combination of a sepia and a selenium toner), then the main drawback is that the toning concentrate has a rather disappointingly short lifetime.

 

[Craig]

I find that selenium can sometimes result in purple and white prints, rather than black and white. It's easy to overdo the effect I think.

 

[dcy]

As mshchem noted, toning works best with warm-tone papers. Try selenium with Ilford Multigrade Art 300, kinda pricey, though - a warm tone RC should work well enough.

Yeah. I will try anything once. At least if it's a consumable like film or paper. Worst case, I decide I don't like it and I celebrate the fact that I tried something new. So I'll definitely try it one day. Ditto for FB. A lot of people absolutely love FB, so I want to see what the fuss is about.

How would you describe this Art 300 paper? The description sound like it's kind of like FB but not really.

A good disquisition on thiourea & sulfur can be found here https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Brown-Toning.pdf

Thanks for the link!

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

No to be flippant, but 'best' is kind of difficult in a context of aesthetics. Personally, I really like how Fomabrom (not a warmtone paper) tones in either sepia or selenium, or, preferably, both. Fomatone (arguably the most readily-toning paper on the market) responds entirely differently and can be beautiful, too - but in a totally different way. Which would be 'best'?


If this is similar to his 'Carbon' toner (and it sure sounds that way as a combination of a sepia and a selenium toner), then the main drawback is that the toning concentrate has a rather disappointingly short lifetime.

On flippancy, from Kodak's description of KRST:

When used with warm-tone papers, it produces cool, chocolate brown hues; with neutral-tone papers, it produces purplish brown tones; and with cool-tone papers, little to no color change is expected.​

This jibes with my experience.

As a rule bromide papers shift color in toner, chloride papers don't; bromide papers are warm, chloride cool. Like most rules it doesn't always hold. Most papers are 'chlorobromide' and are somewhere in the middle. Sepia bleaching toners will tone anything.

I'm not sure what 'his toner' you refer to. Polytoner is a commercial Kodak product, discontinued for some time. It can be made by mixing from Kodak Brown & Selenium toners. Brown toner is a sulfide toner. Polytoner, like its two ingredients, has a very long lifetime; I have some that is decades old and it still works. PT is an acquired taste that I have yet to acquire, hence my decades old bottle. I try my bottle of PT every now and then, hope springing eternal and all that.

 

[GregY]

I find that selenium can sometimes result in purple and white prints, rather than black and white. It's easy to overdo the effect I think.

Yes!

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

A lot of people absolutely love FB, so I want to see what the fuss is about.

Ah, well, FB is a PITA to wash, and can crease and tear when wet (though you do have to man-handle it a bit). It can curl like the devil in single weight and needs to be machine dried, though there are tricks to tame the curl; I don't know if anyone still makes a single weight FB. Joy all around.

The difference, for me, is the surface finish. FB takes on some of the texture of the paper it is made from. Heavily textured papers had textures like canvas, burlap and silk, calenered on. I think Kodak made an ultra-matte finish paper that incorporated chopped rabbit fur in the emulsion. RC paper is, well, plastic and to me the surface finish has all the aesthetic appeal of a car dashboard.

For an example of the FB papers of yore, try and get hold of a 60's vintage Kodak Darkroom Dataguide with the bound paper samples.

If you have extra brain cells to spare with interesting, but useless, information on the minutia of making FB paper: https://125px.com/docs/misc/other/Guide_to_Surface_Characteristics_FINAL.pdf

 

[koraks]

I'm not sure what 'his toner' you refer to.

I thought you were referring to Moersch' 'carbon toner', which is a sepia-selenium toner. I'm not sure how, but I thought you were referring to a Wolfgang Moersch toner.

 

[GregY]

"How would you describe this Art 300 paper? The description sound like it's kind of like FB but not really."

dcy, Art 300 is a fiber paper....with texture. IMO it's great for portraits or for printing from an old or damaged negative ( less & less obvious spotting to be done). In this day of sharp lens and critically sharp films....not every person over 25 wants a portrait photo that shows every wrinkle on their face.
It is a very nice paper to work with.
As for the "fuss" about baryta (fb) paper......it is as Nicholas described... surface finish texture & weight vs the plastic feel of RC.
In reality it's not that much of a nightmare. Handled roughly you can damage it....but you're working in a darkroom, not nailing 2x4s. And as far as not drying flat..... that's one of the characteristics.... & they flatten nicely in a drymount press. The difference? is a bit like listening to a recording on vinyl through great sound system or a compressed digital soundfile through earbuds....

 

[dcy]

As for the "fuss" about baryta (fb) paper......it is as Nicholas described... surface finish texture & weight vs the plastic feel of RC.
In reality it's not that much of a nightmare. Handled roughly you can damage it....but you're working in a darkroom, not nailing 2x4s. And as far as not drying flat..... that's one of the characteristics.... & they flatten nicely in a drymount press.

I tried flattening cyanotype with books and clamps for a few days. It wouldn't go flat. But several people have reported good experiences with a t-shirt press which is a lot cheaper than a drymount press.

The difference? is a bit like listening to a recording on vinyl through great sound system or a compressed digital soundfile through earbuds....

Man, I definitely want to try it. As I said earlier, a good thing about a consumable is I can have a box of the fancy stuff in the closet and just use it sporadically.

Here's an opinion question: If I tell you that I want to try just one fiber paper to see what gets people so excited about them, which one would you suggest I try?

Whatever you suggest, I won't buy right now, but I'll put it in my B&H wish list and plan to buy it when my current stack of paper gets a bit lower. Don't know if I'll buy 5x7 or 8x10.

 

[MattKing]

If you like toning rabbit holes, this is both effective and fun: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/kala-namak-sepia-toner-for-indirect-toning.451/
As the strength of the Kala Namak seasoning appears to vary widely depending on source, and perhaps within single sources, it adds another source of inconsistency, but when you get this to work from something found in the grocery spice aisle, the satisfaction is surprisingly high.
Local availability probably depends on the cultural mix where you live.

 

[GregY]

I tried flattening cyanotype with books and clamps for a few days. It wouldn't go flat. But several people have reported good experiences with a t-shirt press which is a lot cheaper than a drymount press.




Man, I definitely want to try it. As I said earlier, a good thing about a consumable is I can have a box of the fancy stuff in the closet and just use it sporadically.

Here's an opinion question: If I tell you that I want to try just one fiber paper to see what gets people so excited about them, which one would you suggest I try?

Whatever you suggest, I won't buy right now, but I'll put it in my B&H wish list and plan to buy it when my current stack of paper gets a bit lower. Don't know if I'll buy 5x7 or 8x10.

My personal, currently available favourite fiber based papers are Foma Variant lll, & Ilford Warmtone
other papers i've used & liked: Fomatone 131, Bergger VC-NB

 

[GregY]

My personal, currently available favourite fiber based papers are Ilford Warmtone, Foma Variant lll,
other papers i've used & liked: Fomatone 131, Bergger VC-NB

a T shirt press may be good for flattening prints but it's hard to beat a quality drymount press. Mounting & matting materials are not inexpensive and contribute a lot to the final look of the print. You may discover as i did that achieving a perfect bevel matt has no short cuts.....& a poorly matted print will trigger all ocd alarms.

 

[MattKing]

a poorly matted print will trigger all ocd alarms.

+++++1
But a T-Shirt press is probably better than a clothes iron - which many of us in the past also tried.

 

[GregY]

+++++1
But a T-Shirt press is probably better than a clothes iron - which many of us in the past also tried.

Yes......remember to turn off the steam function

 

[snusmumriken]

a T shirt press may be good for flattening prints

I had no idea there was such a thing, but now that I know, I’m glad someone has found a worthwhile use for it.

 

[dcy]

My personal, currently available favourite fiber based papers are Foma Variant lll, & Ilford Warmtone
other papers i've used & liked: Fomatone 131, Bergger VC-NB

I'm going to adapt @Fatih Ayoglu 's suggestion and buy 8x10s and cut them into 4x5s so I can get smaller quantities. One upside of getting 8x10 is that I have the option of actually printing 8x10.

When my current paper stack runs low, I will buy 25-sheet packs of Foma Variant III and Ilford FB Warmtone alongside the Ilford RC Cooltone.

Each of those is available in Glossy or Matte/Semi-Matte/Pearl. I'll do a random sampling.

 

[GregY]

I'm going to adapt @Fatih Ayoglu 's suggestion and buy 8x10s and cut them into 4x5s so I can get smaller quantities. One upside of getting 8x10 is that I have the option of actually printing 8x10.

When my current paper stack runs low, I will buy 25-sheet packs of Foma Variant III and Ilford FB Warmtone alongside the Ilford RC Cooltone.

Each of those is available in Glossy or Matte/Semi-Matte/Pearl. I'll do a random sampling.

d, if you plan on precision cutting. Don't cheap out......just buy a Rotatrim

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1543930-REG/rotatrim_rcpro12i_pro_series_12_rotary.html

 

[Craig]

I'm going to adapt @Fatih Ayoglu 's suggestion and buy 8x10s and cut them into 4x5s so I can get smaller quantities. One upside of getting 8x10 is that I have the option of actually printing 8x10.

You can also cut 8x10 into 5x7 and then you have paper for test strips.

 

[dcy]

a T shirt press may be good for flattening prints but it's hard to beat a quality drymount press.

Yeah. Just flattening. A $200 machine will probably not be as good as a $2,000 machine at doing exactly the job that the $2,000 machine was designed to do.

Here is Pictorial Planet's review of using a t-shirt press for flattening FB prints.

Here is the review from The Naked Photographer.

Both are quite positive. I don't have a t-shirt press, but after the hassle I had flattening cyanotype, I am positive that if I really got into either FB or alt-process I'd quickly buy one of those presses.

 

[dcy]

d, if you plan on precision cutting. Don't cheap out......just buy a Rotatrim

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1543930-REG/rotatrim_rcpro12i_pro_series_12_rotary.html

!!! $225 for a paper cutter?

What's wrong with the $9.26 one I got from Amazon?

You do realize that I'm just putting these prints in my family album, right?

 

[GregY]

Yeah. Just flattening. A $200 machine will probably not be as good as a $2,000 machine at doing exactly the job that the $2,000 machine was designed to do.

Here is Pictorial Planet's review of using a t-shirt press for flattening FB prints.

Here is the review from The Naked Photographer.

Both are quite positive. I don't have a t-shirt press, but after the hassle I had flattening cyanotype, I am positive that if I really got into either FB or alt-process I'd quickly buy one of those presses.

An all important step is the cooling phase. I let my prints cool under a big heavy piece of 1/2" plate glass