Longevity of toning solutions?

[dcy]

Thanks to this forum, I can now produce much better negatives and prints than I could before.

At this point I actually have a few prints that I like. I printed them many times so that I'd be able to experiment with toning. I have a sepia toner from the Photographer's Formulary and a rapid selenium toner from Kodak, both with good instructions. I understand that the bleach from the sepia kit and the working selenium solution are both meant to be reused.

(1) Does anyone know the shelf life of the bleach from a sepia kit?

(2) Does anyone know the shelf life of the selenium working solution?

 

[GregY]

Selenium toner lasts indefinitely! I use 1:19....and mixed a new gallon for the first time in years.
I use potassium ferricyanide .....mixed in small batches for working on prints.....it lasts a very short time.... i use it one shot. a dime sized drop of powder in a small beaker add a little water.... for local bleaching...

 

[Milpool]

What do you have against reading the instructions? Why do you make the assumption anyone here has good information for you on this stuff. It could be reliable information, but most of it will be at best anecdotal. “I’ve used the same solution for 80 years and it works just like it did when new”. “The cookbook said bla bla.” Other than pointing you to a manual or reputable source, do you really think anyone on Photrio knows how long a selenium toner solution lasts?

This is how you create the kinds of problems that shouldn’t exist, but which the people who gave you the advice will gladly try to help you solve.

 

[dcy]

What do you have against reading the instructions?

Hey. That was uncalled for. I would imagine that when I said that both products have good instructions, that would imply that I have read them. The two questions I asked are the only two things that were not covered in the instructions.

Other than pointing you to a manual or reputable source, do you really think anyone on Photrio knows how long a selenium toner solution lasts?

Yes. I really did think that someone in Photrio would know how long a selenium toner solution lasts. I honestly thought it was a reasonable question. If I have offended you, please accept my apologies.

 

[MattKing]

What do you have against reading the instructions? Why do you make the assumption anyone here has good information for you on this stuff. It could be reliable information, but most of it will be at best anecdotal. “I’ve used the same solution for 80 years and it works just like it did when new”. “The cookbook said bla bla.” Other than pointing you to a manual or reputable source, do you really think anyone on Photrio knows how long a selenium toner solution lasts?

This is how you create the kinds of problems that shouldn’t exist, but which the people who gave you the advice will gladly try to help you solve.

@Milpool
Somewhat grumpy today?
You are right that one should always start with the manufacturer's information, and a link to the manufacturer's datasheet is, indeed, a helpful assist.
So we will help you with that - this is the one for the Ilford product, which should work well for just about any similar product: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/585/product/671/
Of course, it is never inappropriate to ask members here to supplement the manufacturer's information with real world experience. I happen to know that there are members here that successfully apply a replenishment approach to extending the lifetime of their selenium toner. That isn't in the manufacturer's datasheet, but that doesn't mean that it isn't viable.

 

[mshchem]

Kodak Rapid Selenium toner is quite stable. I use 1+3 which is one of the recommended dilutions from the old Kodak days. If you have a properly fixed print (I use fresh film strength Rapid fixer) rinse for 30 seconds in running water then go straight into the Selenium toner. As long as you have adequate fixing you won't see any staining, if you do see staining, well then you'll have saved yourself from a real disaster, inadequately fixed prints.

Don't worry about capacity and shelf life of your toners too much. Keep your eye on the capacity of your fixer.

 

[mshchem]

Also, Ilford Photo is the only manufacturer who is really distributing modern up to date comprehensive technical information.
MHOFWIW YMMV

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I have a have full bottle of Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner from 1998, that still works, so it can last years. Once diluted, it will last a few months or longer, depending on dilution. Store in a cool place.

 

[mshchem]

Pretty sure the date? on the bottom of the label translates to November of 1970. This stuff is alive and well.

 

[F4U]

I CAN tell you that sepia toner can go bad. It will begin stinking to high heaven. Oh, wait... Seriously, as I recall the bleach part doesn't really last very long once mixed. and the toner part grows disgusting slimy goo, and will smell even worse. (Yes it's actually possible). Selenium on the other hand, has no discernable life as a working solution. You'll know when it's not working any more.

 

[dcy]

I have a have full bottle of Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner from 1998, that still works, so it can last years. Once diluted, it will last a few months or longer, depending on dilution. Store in a cool place.

Thanks! A few months is longer than I expected.

So we will help you with that - this is the one for the Ilford product, which should work well for just about any similar product: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/585/product/671/

Thanks for the link! That has more detailed information than what I got from Kodak. I did not think to look at a competitor's datasheet.

 

[mshchem]

Yes, sepia toner, the stinky part transmogrificates over time. I think most of the stuff sold today is just liver of sulfur. I haven't fooled with sepia toner in a long time. The bleach part can be made from potassium ferricyanide crystals, a little bit goes along way.

 

[dcy]

I CAN tell you that sepia toner can go bad. It will begin stinking to high heaven.

It stinks to high heaven now

Oh, wait... Seriously, as I recall the bleach part doesn't really last very long once mixed. and the toner part grows disgusting slimy goo, and will smell even worse. (Yes it's actually possible).

Oh dear lord.

Selenium on the other hand, has no discernable life as a working solution. You'll know when it's not working any more.

I should try Selenium it on cooltone paper. I'm having trouble seeing working now. --- I can convince myself that Dmax is higher. I went for a 1:4 dilution hoping to see some color shift, but there is none.

 

[mshchem]

It stinks to high heaven now



Oh dear lord.



I should try Selenium it on cooltone paper. I'm having trouble seeing working now. --- I can convince myself that Dmax is higher. I went for a 1:4 dilution hoping to see some color shift, but there is none.

Toners work best on warm tone fiber base paper and slow silver chloride based papers. Fomatone is a great paper that tones like crazy (and it looks great with no toner) Ilford's current MG RC paper responds to toner.

Typically cold tone papers don't respond well to anything other than a bleach and redevelopment sepia toner.

 

[MattKing]

Thanks! A few months is longer than I expected.



Thanks for the link! That has more detailed information than what I got from Kodak. I did not think to look at a competitor's datasheet.

There really is no updated information coming right now from the entity that now has the rights to make and sell Kodak branded still film photo chemistry.
That entity - Photo Systems - has been in the business for a long time, but they haven't always been the best at supplying detailed instructions.

 

[MattKing]

Toners work best on warm tone fiber base paper and slow silver chloride based papers. Fomatone is a great paper that tones like crazy (and it looks great with no toner) Ilford's current MG RC paper responds to toner.

Typically cold tone papers don't respond well to anything other than a bleach and redevelopment sepia toner.

Actually, the Ilford RC Cooltone paper does respond really nicely to Selenium toning - far more response actually than the older version of their neutral tone RC paper, MGIV RC.

 

[GregY]

Thanks! A few months is longer than I expected.



Thanks for the link! That has more detailed information than what I got from Kodak. I did not think to look at a competitor's datasheet.

I just finished off an open gallon jug of concentrate I started on more than 20 years ago.
At 1:19 dilution I've never had selenium toner die.
Occasionally i filter out the accumulated sludge.

 

[koraks]

(1) Does anyone know the shelf life of the bleach from a sepia kit?

Eons.

(2) Does anyone know the shelf life of the selenium working solution?

Same.

 

[mshchem]

Actually, the Ilford RC Cooltone paper does respond really nicely to Selenium toning - far more response actually than the older version of their neutral tone RC paper, MGIV RC.

The Ilford Cooltone isn't a classic cold tone paper is it? Not really sure, I thought of this more like a tinted base? Not really sure.
I'm dating myself, when I think of cold tone I'm reverting back to stuff like Kodak Medalist graded fiber base paper.

Anyway Thanks for the information.

I use Se on most everything. 1+3 gives me nice D-max increase on Ilford MG RC.

I need to get busy in the darkroom, been too nice outside

 

[Milpool]

@Milpool
Somewhat grumpy today?
You are right that one should always start with the manufacturer's information, and a link to the manufacturer's datasheet is, indeed, a helpful assist.
So we will help you with that - this is the one for the Ilford product, which should work well for just about any similar product: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/585/product/671/
Of course, it is never inappropriate to ask members here to supplement the manufacturer's information with real world experience. I happen to know that there are members here that successfully apply a replenishment approach to extending the lifetime of their selenium toner. That isn't in the manufacturer's datasheet, but that doesn't mean that it isn't viable.

I'm always grumpy, but I stand by my post. Obviously it isn't inappropriate to ask people on a forum for their respective two cents. That's more or less the point of a forum (besides arguing about what is is).

The problem with so-called "real world" experience is that exceedingly few can provide real world advice that (1) is based on consistent, quality results and/or (2) is based on sound methodologies and/or (3) isn't just regurgitating second hand from lousy sources.

If someone is trying to learn this hobby, craft, whatever you want to call it from scratch, (reputable) manufacturer instructions and maybe one or two good additional sources is the way to get the highest quality results without creating unnecessary problems (particularly where chemistry/processing is concerned) and needlessly complicating things that aren't very complicated with gobbledygook.

Sorry, but overall I don't think OP has received very good advice across his threads and I think most if not all the issues he has run into could easily have been avoided.

 

[dcy]

I'm always grumpy, but I stand by my post...

The problem with so-called "real world" experience is...

If someone is trying to learn this hobby, craft, whatever you want to call it from scratch, (reputable) manufacturer instructions and maybe one or two good additional sources is the way to get the highest quality results...

Sorry, but overall I don't think OP has received very good advice across his threads and I think most if not all the issues he has run into could easily have been avoided.

Two things:

(1) I don't see how any of this justifies either the tone or content or your post:

"What do you have against reading the instructions? Why do you make the assumption anyone here has good information for you on this stuff. ... do you really think anyone on Photrio knows how long a selenium toner solution lasts?"

Feeling that the forum has given me bad advice does not justify you treating me this way.


(2) How about you let me decide whether I want advice from the forum or not?

While fully acknowledging that asking in this forum has, at times, caused problems rather than solve them, and has often led me into rabbit holes, I think I should be able to decide on my own whether I want to take a chance by asking another question.


In the specific case of this thread, I began by carefully reading the instructions from both manufacturers in full, and then I asked two very precise and concrete questions. Then you came at me with "What do you have against reading the instructions?". You say that you stand by your post. Fine. At least I know that the way you chose to respond to me was not accidental.

 

[GregY]

Eons.



Same.

<3

 

[Ian Grant]

The Ferricyanide/Bromide bleach keeps quite a long time in concentrated form, over a year, if it's turning green it's past it.

Ian

 

[GregY]

The Ferricyanide/Bromide bleach keeps quite a long time in concentrated form, over a year, if it's turning green it's past it.

Ian

The Ferri/Bromide bleach provided in the kit from Photo Formulary is packaged in dry form.

 

[Ian Grant]

The Ferri/Bromide bleach provided in the kit from Photo Formulary is packaged in dry form.

Shelf life whether in dry form or made up as a concentrate depends on many factors. The OP does not ask about shelf life as a powder or solution, but it can degenerate in either form.

Ferricyanide as a powder or in solution will break down to Ferrocyanide with poor storage, or as weak solution.

Ian