Lith Printing Now Dead? Tim Rudman Lith Printing Newsletter Comes to an End.

ic-racer · Feb 13, 2024

Seems Tim Rudman, who promoted Lith printing with his newsletter, has sent out the final edition. His impression is that no papers currently available demonstrate 'infectious development' like the papers of old.

I guess I'm not surprised as the papers I was using back in 2008 (when I did most of my Lith printing) were already discontinued. I always thought some new papers would come to the market.

How do you lament the loss of your favorite paper?

mshchem · Feb 14, 2024

Bah humbug. Just plow ahead, lith maybe done I don't know but there's still no shortage of fabulous papers.

Keith Tapscott. · Feb 14, 2024

ic-racer said:
Seems Tim Rudman, who promoted Lith printing with his newsletter, has sent out the final edition. His impression is that no papers currently available demonstrate 'infectious development' like the papers of old.

I guess I'm not surprised as the papers I was using back in 2008 (when I did most of my Lith printing) were already discontinued. I always thought some new papers would come to the market.

How do you lament the loss of your favorite paper?

I never tried much lith printing, so I will not miss it like regular lith printers.
I noticed in his news letter that he has a stash of Kodak infrared films in his freezer that he will sell for £25 each roll if anyone is interested along with boxes of lithable papers for sale.

koraks · Feb 14, 2024

There's always second pass lith.

bedrof · Feb 14, 2024

Ah, wait, but what about Foma Retrobrom?
It's still in stock and it is (at least was) lithable for sure, though I don't very much like what it looks in my hands.
And Fomatone should be fine too, since they changed the formulation back to meet the lith-printers demand.

Buzz-01 · Feb 14, 2024

Retrobrom and the current Fomatone indeed should lith just fine (I still have enough of the old stuff in stock so haven't tried myself) and furthermore I try to lith just about every paper I can get my hands on.
Sometimes with good luck, sometimes with great disappointment...

Carnie Bob · Feb 14, 2024

mshchem said:
Bah humbug. Just plow ahead, lith maybe done I don't know but there's still no shortage of fabulous papers.

I agree, one of my favs is Ilford Warmtone which a lot of lith printers say does not work well. its all in the timing of the snatch point

ic-racer · Feb 14, 2024

Fomatone MG Classic 131 Warmtone FB just came in the mail today, will check it out!

infrar3d · Feb 14, 2024

I don’t know what the future holds for new lith papers, it’s a niche within a niche. But there is still a lot of old paper out there that is usable.

Keith Tapscott. · Feb 15, 2024

I emailed Tim about this thread and his reply is that he doesn't think Lith printing is dead as the title suggests he thinks it still has a bright future ahead as a creative technique.
It has expanded albeit in a different form and in the hands of a creative printer can still produce beautiful prints. People after all are still practicing and teaching Daguerreotypes.
Many people have never experienced the true infectious Lith papers like Kodalith LP or Sterling LP but it is still worth using papers of today.

Also TinyLetter is closing down on the 29th of February.

Perhaps he might chime in at some point but I don't expect him to.

Keith Tapscott. · Feb 15, 2024

I should also have mentioned 2nd pass Lith in my post above. Apologies to Tim if he reads this.

ic-racer · Feb 15, 2024

What I was hoping for is that the discussion of Lith materials could continue here at PhotoTrio. I think PhotoTrio is the best place on the internet for this type of discussion.

Keith Tapscott. · Feb 15, 2024

ic-racer said:
What I was hoping for is that the discussion of Lith materials could continue here at PhotoTrio. I think PhotoTrio is the best place on the internet for this type of discussion.

Me too. Here is a link to a photographer who is using old photo papers for Lith printing.

Lith Process & Old Papers – Gavin Lyons Photography

gavinlyons.photography

Melvin J Bramley · Feb 15, 2024

I have a roll of Kodak ektalure which none seems to want!
I guess lith is not popular anymore.

ic-racer · Feb 15, 2024

I don't know about Ektalure and Lith. I had my entire lith experience on some old Forte that my local shop was getting rid of in 2002. Only one or two sheets left at this point. So, other than the Fomatone I just got, I have not used any other 'lith' papers.

Guillaume Zuili · Feb 16, 2024

There has been some change in the emulsion of Fomatone 131 and 132 last year. Moersch was the one sounding the alarm because it doesn't lith anymore.
New 131 isn't glossy but "semi-glossy". If you get the glossy it does lith.
Foma is trying to get Fomatone back on track as for Lith (Moersch source also).

I have been doing Lith exclusively for almost 20 years and I'm looking for old paper all the time.
It's not dead. Complicated sometimes. But not dead.

- Old Kodak papers like Opal, Medalist, Polycontrast, some Kodabromide, or Ektalure are terrific. The best of all by far being Opal.
- Agfa Brovira, Portriga, record Rapid are... treasures.
- Old Oriental in blue boxes, treasures as well.
- Forte for sure.
- Guilleminot (old Zone 6, the one made in France) terrific as well.
- Orwo, Agfa Gevaert, Dupont, they all work.

So as long as we find paper it's not dead.

Keith Tapscott. · Feb 16, 2024

ic-racer said:
I don't know about Ektalure and Lith. I had my entire lith experience on some old Forte that my local shop was getting rid of in 2002. Only one or two sheets left at this point. So, other than the Fomatone I just got, I have not used any other 'lith' papers.

Despite it's age it's probably very suitable for Lith printing.

eunified61 · Jan 6, 2025

You should look at Bob Carnie's tube video on lith printing Ilford warmtone

hiroh · Jan 11, 2025

ic-racer said:
Fomatone MG Classic 131 Warmtone FB just came in the mail today, will check it out!

Disclaimer: I’m very new to lith printing. I tried both of these papers and am getting a snowball effect, which is more prominent on Ilford WT FB Semi-Matt. Maybe I can reduce the development time, but then I won’t achieve the desired contrast. I tried some old paper, such as Ilford MG IV, and it worked just as I wanted, but it took a very long time to develop.

I use Moersch 50+50+25 (1+4) as recommended by the manufacturer.

pentaxuser · Jan 11, 2025

hiroh said:
Disclaimer: I’m very new to lith printing. I tried both of these papers and am getting a snowball effect, which is more prominent on Ilford WT FB Semi-Matt. Maybe I can reduce the development time, but then I won’t achieve the desired contrast. I tried some old paper, such as Ilford MG IV, and it worked just as I wanted, but it took a very long time to develop.

I use Moersch 50+50+25 (1+4) as recommended by the manufacturer.

That's an interesting discovery in the sense that Ilford MG IV was said to be one of the least sensitive or even totally insensitive papers to lith toning

Was this RC or FB paper in your case?. If it was RC can you show us examples? Thanks

pentaxuser

hiroh · Jan 11, 2025

They are both FB papers.

MG WT Semi-matt is a new box, purchased just weeks ago, and I use it regularly for my traditional darkroom printing.

MG IV, on the other hand, is who knows how many years or even decades old. I got it for free over five years ago, alongside some other papers, and the box was completely worn-out, which tells me it was very old even when I received it. I assumed it would be completely useless but kept it anyway (turns out that was a good decision).

Here are examples of prints made with MG IV and two with MG WT. Both MG WT prints have these blotches, which I read somewhere are called “snowballs.” MG IV, in this case, is much more contrasty, which I intentionally did by leaving it in the developer longer. I like the grainy look of the IV print in this case.

Even my new FOMATONE MG Classic has the same issue as MG WT, although it’s not as prominent.

ILFORD FB WT Semi-Matt:

ILFORD VI Glossy:

FOMATONE MG Classic:

This is my first lith print I ever made. I was just playing with different papers and dev times.

Prest_400 · Jan 11, 2025

I got into Lith when my community darkroom had a bunch of old paper, someone mentioned Lith as a tecnique to use it, and that fogged old paper turned into a photograpical goldmine for me. However, am quite intermittent with printing Lith

Buzz-01 said:
Retrobrom and the current Fomatone indeed should lith just fine (I still have enough of the old stuff in stock so haven't tried myself)

An emulsion that sadly has not made it into paper is Adox Polywarmtone. IIRC there is a reference, perhaps in Tim's documentation, that this new Polywarmtone liths well like Forte's. I only had a few sheets of the original to print on and it was a fantastically beautiful paper.

As of Foma's I still have to try, have enough old paper available and I print rather little lith nowadays.

ic-racer said:
What I was hoping for is that the discussion of Lith materials could continue here at PhotoTrio. I think PhotoTrio is the best place on the internet for this type of discussion.

I agree, even if there has been quite some good discussions and mostly examples on the Facebook Lith group!

Carnie Bob · Jan 12, 2025

Guillaume Zuili said:
There has been some change in the emulsion of Fomatone 131 and 132 last year. Moersch was the one sounding the alarm because it doesn't lith anymore.
New 131 isn't glossy but "semi-glossy". If you get the glossy it does lith.
Foma is trying to get Fomatone back on track as for Lith (Moersch source also).

I have been doing Lith exclusively for almost 20 years and I'm looking for old paper all the time.
It's not dead. Complicated sometimes. But not dead.

- Old Kodak papers like Opal, Medalist, Polycontrast, some Kodabromide, or Ektalure are terrific. The best of all by far being Opal.
- Agfa Brovira, Portriga, record Rapid are... treasures.
- Old Oriental in blue boxes, treasures as well.
- Forte for sure.
- Guilleminot (old Zone 6, the one made in France) terrific as well.
- Orwo, Agfa Gevaert, Dupont, they all work.

So as long as we find paper it's not dead.

Are you coming to Toronto in May , if so a visit is in order?

Carnie Bob · Jan 12, 2025

Lith Printing and Solarization Printing made me a much better overall silver printer, the fact that one has to view for the snatch point in both forces you to look
at the print in the developer rather than automatically processing it for a specific time.
I now can judge density and contrast at the dev stage and before I turn on the room lights have a good plan in my mind on how to proceed to the next step.

pentaxuser · Jan 12, 2025

Thanks Hiroh for the reply. You haven't said so in as many words but as far as I know the former MG IV paper was only RC so I assume that yours is RC?

Sorry to be a nuisance but this kind of "excessive over attention"on my part to names is brought about by the fact that I was probably careless in my own use of the the word MGIV where for instance I might refer to MG IV Warmtone whereas in fact the official Ilford name was called MG RC Warmtone with no mention of IV

I looked at Bob Carnie's lith video and was expecting the paper to appear much more "pinkish" His was Ilford WT FB paper but like your examples there was barely a hint of pink He did go to say that once lithed as he had done for the video, one of his lith printers went on to tone the paper and that finishing touch made all the difference So with Ilford paper it appears that a second stage may be needed

In all the examples I have seen where Moersch lith was used there is much more of a change to the paper but as you used Moersch lith on Ilford paper with what seemed a símilar outcome it may be that what I associate with lith from Moersch examples even his lith only gives this pinkish effect with other now defunct papers

pentaxuser

Lith Printing Now Dead? Tim Rudman Lith Printing Newsletter Comes to an End.

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