Light Meter advice needed.

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Helge

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The dome is simulating a 3D object towards the light that the camera sees. Imagine it’s a face that you are photographing.

You can’t shade the dome with your body.

You shouldn’t place it in patches of light and or shade that isn’t representing “normal” light in the scene.

The exception to the first rule is If you are measuring light that should create a siluette or halo around the object. Then you should point the dome towards the light.

Add and subtract stops as you see fit to get various effects.
 

wiltw

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Skies are not always 'blown pixels' bright...just yesterday was sunny sky here in NorCal...based upon where my camera lens was aimed the sky was a different brightness, relative to the same 18% gray card in bright sun...
  • in one direction (south of sun position) the sky was +1EV brighter than 18% gray card
  • in another direction (north of sun position) the sky was 0EV compared to the 18% gray card
Had my subject been in the yard 6' from me, the exposure would have been perfect for THEM...and the sky would be either 'same brightness' or 1EV brighter than my main subject.
If I set my exposure to the sky, my subject would be either 'same brightness' or '-1EV underexposed'

So metering for ground vs. metering for sky is very much an "It depends' upon what you as the photographer think is the most important thing in the scene! A portraitist has very different goals than a landscape shooter...NEITHER are 'wrong'...It depends!

Today it is overcast, no blue sky
  • in one direction, the sky is -0.2EV darker than 18% gray card
  • in the other direction, the sky is +3.5EV brighter than the gray card
...and just like yesterday, what is more important to the photographer is what you base the exposure upon. If we reduced exposure by -3.5EV to get mid-tone skies, my portrait sitter would be horridly underexposed! If I was hired to shoot someone's portrait, I would expose so that the skin tones are recorded at the inherent brightness, and 'let the sky fall where it may' (to paraphrase Sirius Glass)
 
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Sirius Glass

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I don't get it. If the ground which is darker requires let's say 1/30 at f/8 and it's shady, even if it's sunny, the sky's going to blow out needing many stops less. At least with chromes. With negative color or BW, sure you can let the sky where it falls.

If all the subject is in the shade on the ground then the sky is not needed in the photography while if all that is metered is the landscape below the horizon, the sky will nicely fit within the range of the slide film.
 

BrianShaw

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Brian Thanks for hanging in there. I made a mistake. The meter I have but rarely use is a Gossen Luna Pro F. See the picture how the globe is in the front. How can you face the dome to yourself and read the meter? Either it faces the subject or faces up, but then the globe read all around.


I think I see your “confusion”. You must either move to the subject location or move to a place where the light is representative of the light at the subject and point the meter back at the camera.
 

Sirius Glass

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All hand-held light meters are essentially "dumb" devices. They are designed to do one thing, and one thing only (measure light intensity), but they can do that very well. Hand-held light meters have only one metering cell, and that cell can't see any image, just an average light value. It's just like a bathroom scale, except it's measuring light intensity instead of weight. It has no idea if it's measuring a human or a bucket of nails. Since the 70's, most SLR film cameras had more than one metering cell in the camera. This was done to get more information about the scene that was being photographed, so decisions could be made about how to adjust exposure. For example, center-weighted metering meant that more emphasis was placed on the cell that read the light from the center of the image, rather than the light readings from cells at the outer edges. This made these cameras "smarter" in terms of getting a good exposure more of the time. Into the late 80's, Nikon introduced matrix metering, which brought several metering cells into the camera, which allowed them to use complex algorithms to handle all kinds of scene scenarios to provide even better exposure results. All the other camera manufacturers came up with similar systems. At that time, 35mm cameras were so sophisticated that it would have been a backward step to use a hand-held meter.

Today, with digital cameras, every pixel becomes a metering cell. You literally have millions of metering cells in the camera, and that's how you can get fancy histograms and clipping alerts. That's a physical impossibility with a hand-held meter with a single metering cell.

These days, hand-held meters are still useful for cameras that have no meters (large format cameras, old cameras), or for cameras that have a single meter cell (better light sensitivity and possibly better accuracy with hand-held). Digital, in terms of hand-held light meters, just means that the display output is digital, it still has only a single metering cell. It still can't do anything at all like what a digital camera can do.

In the "old days", pro photographers used Polaroid shots to confirm their exposure was correct, and if not, adjust accordingly. You can do the same thing with a digital camera today, and it's much cheaper than using Polaroid. What you're doing with the digital camera to test exposure, makes perfect sense. By correlating your exposure on the digital camera, with your film camera, you should be able to get good results more easily than with a hand-held meter.

Every hand-held meter is designed to give the appropriate exposure for 18% gray average scenes. That works well for many scenes, but it's the photographer that needs to know when that doesn't apply, and adjust accordingly. The hand-held meter is still "dumb", and can't tell when the scene being shot doesn't meet the "normal" 18% gray average.

But some meter users are dumber than others.
 

Sirius Glass

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All hand-held light meters are essentially "dumb" devices. ...

In the "old days", pro photographers used Polaroid shots to confirm their exposure was correct, and if not, adjust accordingly. You can do the same thing with a digital camera today, and it's much cheaper than using Polaroid. What you're doing with the digital camera to test exposure, makes perfect sense. By correlating your exposure on the digital camera, with your film camera, you should be able to get good results more easily than with a hand-held meter.

Every hand-held meter is designed to give the appropriate exposure for 18% gray average scenes. That works well for many scenes, but it's the photographer that needs to know when that doesn't apply, and adjust accordingly. The hand-held meter is still "dumb", and can't tell when the scene being shot doesn't meet the "normal" 18% gray average.

Polaroid cameras can litter the countryside better than digital or other film cameras with the pealed off paper.
 

Mike Lopez

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But some meter users are dumber than others.
I remember there being someone here awhile back, a real expert in his own mind, who insisted that the proper use of an incident meter was to position it at the camera and pointed toward the subject. And no matter how many people questioned this assertion and pointed out his error, he insisted he was right over and over again until a point of critical mass was reached and he kind of just had to slink away. Remember that guy? His avatar was the same as yours.
 

wiltw

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Polaroid cameras can litter the countryside better than digital or other film cameras with the pealed off paper.

I never found Polaroids to be terrific for assessment of exposure...I would only use them to look for things out of place (e.g. tree limb growing out of the portrait sitter's head, piece of trash on the floor peeking out behind the product being shot) that had excaped attention, before the actual shot was taken.
 

wiltw

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I tested the app, D200, and SRT101 in a standardized way as was suggested. As well as I could. Multiple apertures and shutter speeds.

The app and D200 returned similar or identical values. The SRT didn’t meter remotely close to those.

The SRT101 meter is supposed to be calibrated for a #357 battery. Using a #675 hearing aid battery changes the reading a bit, but not significantly.

I ordered the Vivitar 45 from John Titterington. I’ll see how that compares to the SRT meter.

The proof in the pudding will be to get the film developed from the SRT101 and see how it looks.

You have proven that your SRT-101 metering is in error.
Not likely that a phone app would match a D200 and both of them be equally in error.

The SRT-101 existed in a time when almost every camera with metering used the same PX-625/PX-13 1.35V mercury oxide cell.
My OM-1 had variable error when there was an alkaline button inserted in place of a mercury oxide battery, and the degree of error was dependent upon the brightness of the ambient light being measured! I proved that to be the case many decades ago.
 

BrianShaw

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I remember there being someone here awhile back, a real expert in his own mind, who insisted that the proper use of an incident meter was to position it at the camera and pointed toward the subject. And no matter how many people questioned this assertion and pointed out his error, he insisted he was right over and over again until a point of critical mass was reached and he kind of just had to slink away. Remember that guy? His avatar was the same as yours.

MIKE drop... literally. :smile:

c54650b7278f88a3eeaa7aa7d5fce4f7.jpg
 

MattKing

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Brian Thanks for hanging in there. I made a mistake. The meter I have but rarely use is a Gossen Luna Pro F. See the picture how the globe is in the front. How can you face the dome to yourself and read the meter? Either it faces the subject or faces up, but then the globe read all around.


The Luna Pro F holds the reading when you release the button. So for incident metering, you point the dome the way you wish, push the button, release the button and then if necessary turn the meter around to view and adjust the scales.
However, if you are taking an incident reading, you are often standing at the subject and pointing the meter back to the camera, so you would be looking at the scales anyways.

And yes, there is nothing wrong with using digital tools like a meter or even a digital camera to support a "capture" with film, and then posting about it in this forum.
 

VinceInMT

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I remember there being someone here awhile back, a real expert in his own mind, who insisted that the proper use of an incident meter…..

Poor advise can abound online. I remember in a discussion about darkrooms are guy (with that same avatar) insisting that zoning in Southern California required new construction to have carpeting in living spaces, therefore creating a dust problem for potential darkrooms. No citation was provided, even after being requested, and after I posted links to several Zillow listings for new construction in that area that had no carpeting no reversal of position was provided.

Let’s just say that the “Ignore” feature of this site’s software is a wonderful thing.
 

VinceInMT

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See the picture how the globe is in the front. How can you face the dome to yourself and read the meter? Either it faces the subject or faces up, but then the globe read all around.

It’s the same as my LunaSix3. The globe slides away for a reflective reading. For incident, slide over the sensor, stand with back to the subject, point the meter to the horizon, and look down for the reading. I assume that you know that.
 

Helge

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It’s the same as my LunaSix3. The globe slides away for a reflective reading. For incident, slide over the sensor, stand with back to the subject, point the meter to the horizon, and look down for the reading. I assume that you know that.

Better to get the meter as close as possible while not shading it.
Pointing the cone slightly down can be a good idea too. It will make sure the shadows are well lit.
 

CMoore

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Using a digital light meter rather than an analog one does not negate 100% Analog/Traditional. Does one have to use an analog thermometer in the developer or could a digital one be OK? Do I have to order film by mail rather than using a digital computer and the web?

The Administrators can confirm or reject this point.

I TRULY cannot believe we are even having this discussion..!!!

The thought that we would ostracize a member for using a digital meter, even if it is in a modern camera, to meter for their film camera is stupid.
Who, or better yet WHY, would anybody give a zhit about what F'ing meter somebody is using..???
This place REALLY Sucks sometimes.
 

madNbad

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So, the OP asked a simple question of is the phone app acceptable for metering. The actual question was answered pages ago.
 
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I think I see your “confusion”. You must either move to the subject location or move to a place where the light is representative of the light at the subject and point the meter back at the camera.

Brian: That makes sense. I was used to my Minolta where I face the subject and rotate the globe so it points back toward the camera but I can still see the settings. So since the globe is fixed on this Gossen, you have to stand by the subject as you said and turn around to point the globe toward the camera. Thanks.
 
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So, the OP asked a simple question of is the phone app acceptable for metering. The actual question was answered pages ago.

But I also learned how to properly use my Gossen after about 140 posts. :wink:
 

nosmok

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After pages of discussion like this, my decision to stop using light meters AT ALL looks better and better !
 

madNbad

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I don't understand the 5 lens presents. Could you expand?

I missed this and may have mentioned it but wanted to give a better answer. The app has five preset buttons the user can set for minimum f stop, focal length and format. It’s a handy feature and shows a red zebra stripe when the EV is less than the lens is capable of exposing for. It would be a nice feature on more expensive meters. The app also allows you to set the minimum and maximum shutter speed range. It also offers a classic mode. It looks and reads just like a Sekonic L-208 Twinmate. It also has a poor version of an incident meter.
 
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Helge

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After having tried quite a few meter apps over the years, I have centered on this one.

2E02BC0A-F314-41CF-B9EB-BD48B9E043CF.jpeg

It’s simple, clean and can do both aperture and shutter priority and you can move the center spot around as you wish.
Would be fantastic if someone figured out a way to do flash metering with an iPhone, and if someone figured out a way to use an Apple Watch for light metering.
 

markjwyatt

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...I have shot over 100,000 slides very successfully, many with Minolta slr from SR-7 to X700 and never needed to look the numbers on the morning's cereal box top, while playing the slide trombone, clipping my toe nails and picking my nose.

Don't know. Playing the slide trombone is kind of critical, but you could substitute a few bars on a baritone followed by a few more on a French horn both while kneading pizza dough with your toes.
 

Helge

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What I posted works for slides as will as prints. You are making thing much too hard. A good slide film will keep the skies as they are meant to be. If you want to use a GND, fine, but there is no need to count the number of fairies on the head of a pin while juggling bowling pins at the same time. I have shot over 100,000 slides very successfully, many with Minolta slr from SR-7 to X700 and never needed to look the numbers on the morning's cereal box top, while playing the slide trombone, clipping my toe nails and picking my nose.

Better is the enemy of good enough and best. There is always a way to optimize.
 
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