Light Lens Lab - New Film Project

[Romanko]

This could be the future of film photography: home-made emulsions, hand-rolled and hand-cut film shot in DIY cameras.

It would probably make more sense to start with unsensitized slow emulsions coated on glass plates. This is exactly where Alfred Harman was in 1879.

 

[Light Lens Lab]

The latest film samples are out, and honestly, they’re nothing like what I imagined. At this point, I don’t have any expectations left.

The reason why I did not post about this on our development blog is due to the fact that this is still from the first batch of 120 test films. I am awaiting test shots when a more consistent/even results are shown when our automated process kicks in.

The 400 speed/peel apart film will be announced this week, due to family here in Canada/Valentine's Day I was not able to make the post in time. There is also a lens announcement this week as well, but that is not related to here.

Also with about the hand-made part, The "Hand-Made" is what we are calling the project in Chinese at the moment, with our English name still being determined.

 

[Romanko]

The "Hand-Made" is what we are calling the project at the moment, with our English name still being determined.

"craft" as in "craft beer"? The term applies for “an annual production of not more than six million barrels of beer rolls of film”.

And please consider my suggestion for glass-plate production. This niche is small but if you manage to produce ISO 400 plates with decent quality people will "love you all the way to the bank". There is also a demand/supply issue here. Many would have used their century old glass-plate holders had the plates been readily available at a reasonable price.

In any case, good luck with your film production adventure and please keep us updated!

 

[koraks]

Also with about the hand-made part, The "Hand-Made" is what we are calling the project in Chinese at the moment, with our English name still being determined.

So you can confirm then that the volume manufacturing will be done on an automated coating line and a roll-to-roll approach? Or will it actually be hand-coated on large sheets?
Just out of curiosity really; of course, in the end, it doesn't really matter how a manufacturer does their work - whether they automate production using machines, have 20 young ladies sitting in a row in the dark fondling coating rods or dancing elves in IR-filtered moonlight. As long as the right product at the right quality comes out at the right volumes...

 

[foc]

As long as the right product at the right quality comes out at the right volumes...

That is where the "magic" is needed.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

And I guess the right price too

 

[Crysist]

I think that's actually an excellent comparison!

Heh, thanks, at least I got some part of the perspective right! When I've joined threads about these topics I quickly find how much I'm out of my league!

Don't forget that a company like FujiFILM is called that ('film') because they're so darn good at making thin layers of stuff. And making thin layers with great consistency and great quality is actually pretty darn challenging to. It just happens that photographic film is exactly that - very thin layers, with very good consistency. Fuji built a multi-billion corporation on that trick. It took them more than a handful of PhD's and a year's worth of R&D to get there.

Ironically, to take from my CPU manufacturing comparison that put the difficulty in perspective, if they're being hand-coated that presumes they're being coated individually or in batches; and in the semiconductor industry, when they want to apply a very thin, even layer of photoresist, they use spincoating. It also speeds up drying, too. Not sure whether it would scale for film, but I wonder if people have done that for hand-coating emulsions? Videos, guides, etc I see about hand-coating emulsions usually seem to involve flowing the emulsion and letting it dry like back in the late 1800s with dry plates.

I always imagined that if I wanted to experiment with making complex, layered emulsions, I would get a bunch of glass microscope slides, put a lightproof box over a spincoater, then drip on emulsions with some lightproof arrangement of syringes onto the spinning plate. I've seen examples of people making tiny wetplates/dryplates that fit medium format and even 35mm cameras which, besides being really cool (and kinda cute), always struck me as faster to iterate on. You can even pop it right in a microscope easily to evaluate it!

In theory!

 

[warden]

The reason why I did not post about this on our development blog is due to the fact that this is still from the first batch of 120 test films. I am awaiting test shots when a more consistent/even results are shown when our automated process kicks in.

The 400 speed/peel apart film will be announced this week, due to family here in Canada/Valentine's Day I was not able to make the post in time. There is also a lens announcement this week as well, but that is not related to here.

Also with about the hand-made part, The "Hand-Made" is what we are calling the project in Chinese at the moment, with our English name still being determined.

Welcome! Glad to see you participating here.

 

[koraks]

spincoating. It also speeds up drying, too. Not sure whether it would scale for film

I think it'll be difficult to get to work because of the thermodynamics involved. You'd have to do the whole thing in an oven that ensures the gelatin won't set prematurely. It'll also be kind of messy unless dialed in very, very precisely. Then there's of course the limitation of physical size as well as the fact that this works best with a round carrier (silicon wafers are indeed round, although not specifically for this reason), which is very uneconomical for film (cutting losses). I don't think it's a very attractive proposition, given the economics and the technical complexity, especially if you factor in the need to coat several layers on top of each other. I'm sure some kind of angular-momentum-based approach has been considered at some point, but evidently, it never made it to industrialization.

 

[Light Lens Lab]

So you can confirm then that the volume manufacturing will be done on an automated coating line and a roll-to-roll approach? Or will it actually be hand-coated on large sheets?
Just out of curiosity really; of course, in the end, it doesn't really matter how a manufacturer does their work - whether they automate production using machines, have 20 young ladies sitting in a row in the dark fondling coating rods or dancing elves in IR-filtered moonlight. As long as the right product at the right quality comes out at the right volumes...

It will be an automated process. No matter how perfect a person does manual coating, it will never get a consistent result in comparison to machines. Also matter of production quantities and qualities...

 

[koraks]

It will be an automated process. No matter how perfect a person does manual coating, it will never get a consistent result in comparison to machines. Also matter of production quantities and qualities...

Yes, we're on the same page. Thanks for confirming!

 

[dokko]

The 400 speed/peel apart film will be announced this week, due to family here in Canada/Valentine's Day I was not able to make the post in time. There is also a lens announcement this week as well, but that is not related to here.

that's great news, looking forward to that.
where is the best place to follow your announcement and progress?

thanks for posting these infos here and best of luck with your project!

 

[JParker]

It will be an automated process.

Thanks for participating here. Much appreciated.

Could you please show in the coming weeks photos or videos of the production line and used machinery? Interviews with the emulsionist?
That would be at least very good for the credibility of your company.
Because all smaller companies who have worked on a revival of film products so far have done that in detail and with great transparency (Impossible Project / Polaroid, Film Ferrania, ADOX).

As a "lens lover", I personally would also be very interested in a video documentary about your lens production. So far I have not seen any photos or videos about it (or maybe I have overlooked it?).

 

[Monomer]

Thanks for participating here. Much appreciated.

Could you please show in the coming weeks photos or videos of the production line and used machinery? Interviews with the emulsionist?
That would be at least very good for the credibility of your company.
Because all smaller companies who have worked on a revival of film products so far have done that in detail and with great transparency (Impossible Project / Polaroid, Film Ferrania, ADOX).

As a "lens lover", I personally would also be very interested in a video documentary about your lens production. So far I have not seen any photos or videos about it (or maybe I have overlooked it?).

Totally agree. Really hoping for more official info and some detailed images.

 

[koraks]

Could you please show in the coming weeks photos or videos of the production line and used machinery? Interviews with the emulsionist?

While I'd personally enjoy such information, I'd like to remark that ultimately, the only thing that matters is whether they manage to get a good product onto the market in the volumes and at a price point that make sense. Whether they make it in a brand-spanking new and shiny production facility where everyone walks around in cleanroom suits, or in a shed that's shared by a horde or over-aged hens and a hoarse rooster, ultimately really doesn't matter one bit.

 

[ags2mikon]

400 speed peel apart? Please tell me more.

 

[MCB18]

So I have a question. Do you guys know how Li-Ion batteries are made? You take a substrate and apply ultra-thin coatings containing lithium ion compounds suspended in a gel. And a ton of these batteries are made in China. There’s lot of coating infrastructure there and people who know how the machines work and how to coat ultra-thin layers of stuff onto rolls

Look, I know that Li-Ion machines are not as complex as anything Kodak and Fuji have to make films with up to 18 layers iirc, but it is almost the exact same process regardless. Assuming that they get the emulsion figured out, which is a challenge, why would they not be able to coat film? They have access to machines capable of doing that, in fact I believe that I read that a few coating lines in Rochester now make batteries.

I’m not trying to sound condescending, I genuinely don’t think you guys have thought about this because Li-Ion batteries have basically no overlap with film. But IMO a simple B&W film isn’t completely out of the question. Am I expecting TMax or Tri-X or Delta? No of course not, but it might be something.

 

[Prest_400]

So I have a question. Do you guys know how Li-Ion batteries are made? You take a substrate and apply ultra-thin coatings containing lithium ion compounds suspended in a gel. And a ton of these batteries are made in China. There’s lot of coating infrastructure there and people who know how the machines work and how to coat ultra-thin layers of stuff onto rolls

Actually true, I had a tour of a Battery manufacturing facility for work reasons and some overall discussion of the process involved. First thing I thought was the analogies to film manufacturing. Interestingly, that facility used extrusion coating.
The current (color) film manufacturers use curtain coating but for B&W manufacturing, and in historical facilities, surely extrusion coating was used.

OT, interesting thread about a coater with input from our eminent PE: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/film-coating-machine-homemade-on-flickr.34267/

 

[koraks]

The current (color) film manufacturers use curtain coating but for B&W manufacturing

Kodak does. Fuji doesn't.

 

[Monomer]

In fact, it’s been revealed that LLL has already invested 20 million yuan into this project and is planning to invest 200–300 million yuan to set up a production line and manufacture film.

Honestly, with a budget this high, wouldn’t it be more straightforward to just acquire an existing company?

 

[MCB18]

In fact, it’s been revealed that LLL has already invested 20 million yuan into this project and is planning to invest 200–300 million yuan to set up a production line and manufacture film.

Honestly, with a budget this high, wouldn’t it be more straightforward to just acquire an existing company?

Is that the coating head in the image shared?

 

[koraks]

Is that the coating head in the image shared?

Doesn't look like it. More like a part of a 35mm confectioning line.

it’s been revealed that LLL has already invested 20 million yuan

But the screen cap you showed doesn't support this:

2k yuan = $275.
Not saying that the 20M yuan figure isn't correct; it's just not in the image you relayed.

 

[Monomer]

The information I’m sharing here comes from Chinese comments. The machine translation on this platform has made some of it hard to understand.

Also, isn’t there a huge gap between 2000 yuan and 200–300 million yuan? In Chinese discussions, people often leave out currency units to avoid platform restrictions. Plus, the WeChat discussion groups had already mentioned LLL’s 20 million yuan investment and involvement of multiple PhD chemists a while ago.

I’m just sharing what I’ve seen—I have no idea how they actually operate. My only goal is to provide some insight into the discussions happening in Chinese communities. At the very least, this shows that their comments aren’t very precise. I’m just really surprised by the idea of a hundreds ofmillion yuan investment.

 

[pentaxuser]

But IMO a simple B&W film isn’t completely out of the question. Am I expecting TMax or Tri-X or Delta? No of course not, but it might be something.

Yes but isn't the real question: Could it compete with any of the 3 films above in terms of price, qualities and QC? I am assuming of course in all of this that neither Harman, Kodak, Foma or Adox will abandon the film market any time soon

pentaxuser

 

[MCB18]

Yes but isn't the real question: Could it compete with any of the 3 films above in terms of price, qualities and QC? I am assuming of course in all of this that neither Harman, Kodak, Foma or Adox will abandon the film market any time soon

pentaxuser

Is Phoenix a competitor to Kodak or Fuji color films? No, absolutely not. And Harman are fully aware of that. That didn’t stop them from making it, or people from buying it, if for no other reason than it is an actual new film that isn’t repacked from anything else and has potential.

From the discussions I have had with a few folks that are working closely with LLL (including a person who actually shot one of the sample rolls and provided some of the images shown) on discord, LLL is well aware that they have a long road ahead of them.

They do not expect to instantly dominate the market. From my understanding they just want to get something out the door. They have seen that as long as they can make something, anything, that is actually new and not completely garbage, that people will buy it, at least initially. That doesn’t mean people will keep buying it, but if it’s unique enough, like phoenix, they probably will want to buy it again.