Let's Talk About Spending a Lot of Money on Lab Equipment with the Aim of Retiring in 25 Years.

[NortheastPhotographic]

We're looking at adding one of these next year: https://www.colenta.at/2025/wp-cont...-Datasheet-06-2022-20-BW-31-7Tank-ECO-V02.pdf

(Why do they make a model that does not have a stop bath tank? The dev times being so short, I think you'd want a true stop bath.)

Just curious about the Ilfotec RT developer requirement. We are doing everything now with replenished XTol (Actually Adox XT3) and a Jobo ATL2500. We use a water stop and Formulary TF5 fixer. I'm assuming it'll be less aesthetically pleasing than XTol, probably grainier? Is significantly worse? Similar to D76? I could live with that. Clayton F76+ was one that I decided was too harsh, and went back to XTol, for example. I've now come to see XTol as the developer on which all others should be evaluated. It's just so good. I've given up on the exotic formations in my personal work. I don't see any significant improvements over simple XTol. However, it just won't be possible to do RT with that so, Ilfotec RT it shall be.

We've had another big year at NP, with 30% sales growth over last year. I have about 25 years left of career time so I think next year will be a good time to solidify that future with a big, scary, investment in equipment. At one time I wanted to get the Colenta ROBOLINE dip and dunk model but I just don't think our space would allow for that sadly. Given that we currently run a 20" COLEX RT C41 machine, we're used to that process. It's actually kind of a conundrum because our Colex is currently working fine and we have a fair amount of small parts for it. It is still from 1994 though. It's also frankly a bit over sized for us. Having access to 6 processing lanes is amazing but just lifting the racks out for cleaning and maintenance can be a messy struggle. They're extremely heavy. As with everything, the electronics are as vulnerable as an Achilles heel. A few years ago Colex did tell me they could provide a new main board but, not sure how long that will last. Plus the entire thing wakes and sleeps based on a tiny little timer unit. If that thing goes down, you'd have to do some electrical work just to start the machine up! So, is it time to get an updated unit? It's a significant expense. How long do you decide to operate with general uncertainty?

Colenta currently makes 3 C41 RT machines. One is a 3 lane, 'rapid access' model. Rapid access is the chemistry used in minilabs. Dev-Bleach-Fix-Stab-Stab-Stab-Dry. Roughly 14m 30 seconds in the unit dry to dry. Second would be a traditional C41 3 lane model. Dev-Bleach-Wash-Fix-Wash-Stab, roughly 24 minutes in the machine. We currently run traditional C41 and we regenerate our bleach which offers significant cost savings over time, and presumably environmental upside as very little gets dumped. Three is nearly the same as the previous but it's 30cm instead of 20 so it adds a 4th lane and a different dryer design. Not sure why that dryer choices was made? (https://www.colenta.at/2025/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/30-C41-32-6-Tank-Pro.pdf) This unit is special order so it would take a few months to get one, we're in no rush. It would also be the least amount of step down for us since we only lose 2 lanes and our workflow remains constant. I've come to like the Fujiflim C41 chemistry quite a bit. You can see it in the scans, they take far fewer adjustments. This is the kind of thing that's not 'supposed' to be true, but just is.

So ideally I'd have a new Colenta C41 machine with 4 lanes and a 3 lane B&W machine. We could then scrub and clean the ATL2500 and resume doing 6 bath E6 with it, as Kodak/PhotoSys has released their 6 bath 5L kits. I also know for a fact that 3-4 new 'lab grade' scanners are coming soon so we will likely add the most robust of those options to replace our HS1800 which I spend most of my time on. That aforementioned scanner would be run by a new employee. So we'd have 1 studio manager, 1 Fuji Frontier Tech, 1 Noritsu HS1800 tech, Myself, who operates the new scanner and maintains the equipment, and theoretically a part timer who helps with shipping and other various tasks. That's the ideal set up anyway.

Would anyone like to commiserate with me on these difficult choices?

 

[koraks]

I can sympathize/empathize, commiserate if you will - but make things easier, nay! I understand the situation though. You're looking to make an investment under conditions that every management book or course on the planet will basically say "don't do it." Well, that's of course exaggerating a bit. But it's an inherently uncertain decision to make, and ultimately it's a judgement call on your behalf.

One of the problems of course is that while you buy new, this doesn't guarantee you'll be spared the necessary teething issues. And also your new purchase today doesn't guarantee Colenta will be around 5 years from now to service your machine.

I understand the need to grow (there's not really an alternative anyway), so in a way, it's not like you have that much of a choice. Yeah, compete for old Noritsu's and Frontiers with the up-and-coming youngsters who are easing themselves into a similar position as yours. You're much better aware of this than I am (or likely anyone else on this forum), but I assume the market for those old beasts is boiling hot and you'll still be left with an old clunker that may or may not have a couple of years' life left in it. And then there'll be the hunt for the elusive spare parts.

But, going out on a limb - it sounds a bit to me like you may have already made up your mind, isn't it? Then the question basically becomes whether you have the cash on hand to do this. If so, maybe just bite the bullet and hope for the best.

In what kind of period do you expect to recoup the investment on that new Colenta?

PS: I hope you're OK with me moving this to the Darkroom Equipment forum.

 

[AnselMortensen]

Circa 1983, I was an early-morning C-41 lab tech.
We used a roller-transport Colenta processor.
My job was to mix chems, pull & clean racks, run cleanup sheets, run film...and vacuum the front lobby.
I completely commiserate with you!

PS: Are cleanup sheets still being made?

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

If you're asking am I dead set on doing this, yes and no? Do I want to say out with the old, in with the new? Yes I do. Especially with scanners. I am sick of old scanners. The HS1800 is ok but the Frontiers, lord. Ancient Windows machines with lots of very persnickety behavioral traits. That being said, yeah it's a ton of money. We'd likely do an SBA loan with a long repayment window. Like I said, 25 years left in my career. Business continues to grow faster than we can adapt to it.

There are also other considerations when you run a shop like this. Can you trust employees to run the machines while you're not there? The colex, probably not. The Jobo...yes after a time. Both are machines where the best user is also prepared to get dirty and fix something that goes wrong. I am so envious of the 90s when I could probably just have Colex or Jobo send someone up here to fix something in a pinch....

But hey maybe the Colex RTF-20 is built so well that it'll keep running for another 25 years? I can't predict that. It would seem like no? Then there is the problem where it breaks down 'for good' and how long am I filling up a 12x roll drum for the Jobo to do C41? I shudder at the thought.

We're doing anywhere from 75 to 125 rolls of C41 a day, and 25 rolls of B&W a day. What we need to do to keep growing is keep turnarounds as fast as possible. I gave up on custom darkroom printing and Piezography. Nobody cared about that stuff, they just want their scans good and fast.

Re cleaning sheets, yes! Fujifilm makes them. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._14965624_Roller_Transport_Cleaning_Film.html

 

[Cholentpot]

What is this retire thing?

 

[gbroadbridge]

Planning for 5 years from now I would consider a prudent business decision, but 25 years?

25 years ago, I thought digital was going to be a fad, so I was late to the party at significant business cost.

I think that the current film trend/resurgence is a fad by those who never experienced the pain of film as part of a business. It'll burn out when the next greatest advancement happens - no idea what that may be unfortunately.

And then it will be back to the very few remaining loyal soldiers to carry forward traditional processes - I doubt enough of us will remain standing to sustain any commercial enterprise - it'll all be home made emulsions coating whatever can be found, and alt processes.

Live your dream, but diversify.

Thats what I would have told my 40yo self 25 years ago.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Planning for 5 years from now I would consider a prudent business decision, but 25 years?

25 years ago, I thought digital was going to be a fad, so I was late to the party at significant business cost.

I think that the current film trend/resurgence is a fad by those who never experienced the pain of film as part of a business. It'll burn out when the next greatest advancement happens - no idea what that may be unfortunately.

And then it will be back to the very few remaining loyal soldiers to carry forward traditional processes - I doubt enough of us will remain standing to sustain any commercial enterprise - it'll all be home made emulsions coating whatever can be found, and alt processes.

Live your dream, but diversify.

Thats what I would have told my 40yo self 25 years ago.

There will always be people who want to use sails instead of an outboard, a turntable instead of Spotify, a horse instead of an ATV, or a film camera instead of digital. Plus I believe AI will push even more people toward analog artistry. Analog was said to be a on the way out 20 years ago, then it was a fad 10 years ago, and here we are...even after massive price spikes people are still reaching for HP5+ or Portra.

 

[gbroadbridge]

There will always be people who want to use sails instead of an outboard, a turntable instead of Spotify, a horse instead of an ATV, or a film camera instead of digital.

Absolutely - I'm one of them - heck I still use two way radios to keep up with old friends.

Plus I believe AI will push even more people toward analog artistry. Analog was said to be a on the way out 20 years ago, then it was a fad 10 years ago, and here we are...even after massive price spikes people are still reaching for HP5+ or Portra.

Sure, my point is that it is difficult to predict 5 years, let alone 25.

Live your dream, but don't put all your eggs into that basket.
A large investment in any one direction can end up hurting a business that has no funds left to adapt.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Absolutely - I'm one of them - heck I still use two way radios to keep up with old friends.



Sure, my point is that it is difficult to predict 5 years, let alone 25.

Live your dream, but don't put all your eggs into that basket.
A large investment in any one direction can end up hurting a business that has no funds left to adapt.

Understood! You're probably not wrong....

 

[calebarchie]

Only 75-125 rolls? In the States?

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

We operate almost entirely mail order in a rural area. That being said, that's a daily figure. I think it's pretty decent for our operation with a ton of headroom for capturing more market.

 

[koraks]

I can get behind what @gbroadbridge says in terms of the investment window and diversification. It's sensible. Then again, running a business and certainly one you've put your heart into inherently carries components of being very much not sensible. It's probably the only way to make it - especially in a niche industry that will likely continue to exist in the margins of society/industry at large. And while I think diversification reduces risk in general - you can only spread out yourself so thin before gaps start to appear. To run a business, you need focus and dedication, first and foremost. This makes it a bit of an all-or-nothing scenario.

I guess if I were in your place I'd commit to the cause, but ensure that my personal risk would be limited. IDK about the legal structures/entities you'd need where you operate. I know how I'd set it up where I live and how to divert the financial risk to the business while avoiding creditors form showing up my doorstep at home if the excrement hits the ventilator and the business turns out to not be able to float itself. Again, IDK what's possible in your case, and there's also a cultural aspect to it for sure. Either way, I'd try to make for myself a kind of sandbox within which I feel I can play more or less safely, thereby making it possible to commit to the venture fully. I know, this has nothing to do with purchasing the machine. Sorry about that.

But hey maybe the Colex RTF-20 is built so well that it'll keep running for another 25 years? I can't predict that. It would seem like no? Then there is the problem where it breaks down 'for good' and how long am I filling up a 12x roll drum for the Jobo to do C41? I shudder at the thought.

I really don't know either and I also recognize that the manual alternative doesn't sound very appealing - especially if you're going to grow your business once you've acquired the new machine. So maybe that's one other thing to think about - risk management, or a fallback scenario. What's your plan in case the machine breaks? How much downtime will you accept before you kick Plan B into motion? Try to work on the machine for one day to get it fixed; if that doesn't work - then what? Manual processing? Divert the bulk of the work to machines (e.g. the ATL2500) used for other tasks, temporarily? What kind of provisions do you have to make in your commercial terms to create room for this kind of thing?

 

[Mr Bill]

I don't really have much to add to this... ultimately it comes down to being a business decision.

I would personally be real hesitant to take on substantial debt unless increased business was virtually guaranteed. Unless you had a potential way to shed such debt, if necessary. (I'm sorta presuming that this debt could potentially bankrupt your business.)

I wonder if it's possible to lease the equipment. I think that this would (obviously) be more expensive, but perhaps give the option of getting out of things? If necessary. But it might also require a ($$) maintenance contract.

There are just so many different angles, depending...

I am so envious of the 90s when I could probably just have Colex or Jobo send someone up here to fix something in a pinch....

Well, the grass always seems greener elsewhere I guess. But the reality of this situation is that when something is easy to do then more competition tends to spring up.

The outfit where I used to work also, at one time, owned the largest chain of one-hour labs in the US. Was it profitable? Well, not really; the company finally sold it off. Originally such labs needed qualified technicians to operate the equipment (mainly the printing stage). But as equipment became more sophisticated it got to where nearly anyone could operate it.

Consequently one-hour labs began to spring up in the large discount stores. Such stores didn't really need to be that profitable because ... the one-hour lab helped bring people into their stores, becoming potential customers for the next hour. You would have really needed some sort of special advantage, or whatever, to be able to compete.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Consequently one-hour labs began to spring up in the large discount stores. Such stores didn't really need to be that profitable because ... the one-hour lab helped bring people into their stores, becoming potential customers for the next hour. You would have really needed some sort of special advantage, or whatever, to be able to compete.

I remember in peak film around the early 90's, you'd take a 36 exp 35mm roll in to a fast turnaround place (which were everywhere like 7/11 these days), get film processed and handed back a warm envelope with 4x6 prints back in an hour for $9.99 which I guess was about $US 5.

They must have somehow turned a profit, but they must have been doing at least 200 rolls a day

 

[Lachlan Young]

Why do they make a model that does not have a stop bath tank? The dev times being so short, I think you'd want a true stop bath

water stop

Roller squeegees eliminate surface carry-over and an appropriately buffered & replenished RT fixer will do a far better job at stopping development in a roller-transport system than a water rinse in a system like a Jobo that has much more significant carry-over (i.e. you should use a proper stop bath in a Jobo).

You could also eliminate the TF5 and replace it with C-41 fix, they are essentially the same idea.

Just curious about the Ilfotec RT developer requirement

Most of the RT B&W developers are pretty similar in effect - D-76-ish but neither as fine-grained nor quite as sharp, at least from the negs I've worked with (and scanned or darkroom printed to some fairly large sizes - 30x with appropriate lenses). It is also the case that a lot of the machines are not (and were not) run with maximum quality in mind. Xtol or XT-3 in a dip-dunk is overall a better solution.

RT systems are more useful for B&W if you work with a limited range of emulsions (i.e. C-41 and E-6 are much better with them) and a specific array of required density manipulations that can fit the machine limitations, coupled to a hands-off throughput need. That said, Ilford's 1+1+5 times do generally look like they should sit OK with the speed ranges of the Colenta for most films (though how long it takes to adjust 5L of dev by a few Celsius to accommodate the outliers is a key question).

At one time I wanted to get the Colenta ROBOLINE dip and dunk model but I just don't think our space would allow for that sadly

Do you have height limits in your workspace?

 

[Mr Bill]

But hey maybe the Colex RTF-20 is built so well that it'll keep running for another 25 years? I can't predict that. It would seem like no? Then there is the problem where it breaks down 'for good' and how long am I filling up a 12x roll drum for the Jobo to do C41? I shudder at the thought.

I have no idea about the proximity of other processors. But it might be a possibility that such might serve as possible backup for you. I would guess there is a fair possibility that they are in a similar situation, worried about the reliability of their own equipment. So it's possible that you might serve as an emergency backup for them.

Might be worth making semi-local contacts, and maybe do a few secret tests to see if their processing is up to your standards.

FWIW back in the heyday of wet processing there used to be so-called user groups related to certain sets of lab equipment. The users essentially were setting up supplementary tech support systems amongst themselves. Might be a worthwhile sort of thing to pursue.

 

[Mr Bill]

I remember in peak film around the early 90's, you'd take a 36 exp 35mm roll in to a fast turnaround place (which were everywhere like 7/11 these days), get film processed and handed back a warm envelope with 4x6 prints back in an hour for $9.99 which I guess was about $US 5.

They must have somehow turned a profit, but they must have been doing at least 200 rolls a day

I don't think we (my employer) could have been profitable at $5 US per roll. I'm thinking the standard price was about double that. But easy enough for more frugal customers to find a half-off discount coupon in the local newspaper, or whatever.

Our business was built on standalone labs in high traffic areas (mainly large shopping malls of the day). So higher rents where the mall might be taking something like 15% off the top. If one looks only at the daily operating costs it might seem profitable. But looking at the purchase/installation cost of the equipment, as well as the cost of advertising in those days, things got a lot more difficult.

In our business model major cities would support a group of stores, perhaps a dozen. Anyone who has managed a retail operation knows that it's necessary to be staffed at all times, allowing for breaks (including restroom) and lunch. Also vacations and even sick days have to be accommodated. So having a larger pool of employees, especially part-timers is real useful; some can shift to other stores, as needed.There would be one equipment repair technician doing the routine repair/maintenance for the group. With a small group from the home office traveling on-site to do new store installations, etc.

Overall our one-hour lab chain was mostly somewhat profitable. But not to the extent one really wanted. And the future didn't look too promising. So it was probably the best thing to leave that business. Fwiw I think that the future owners of the lab's all went bankrupt after several years.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Roller squeegees eliminate surface carry-over and an appropriately buffered & replenished RT fixer will do a far better job at stopping development in a roller-transport system than a water rinse in a system like a Jobo that has much more significant carry-over (i.e. you should use a proper stop bath in a Jobo).

You could also eliminate the TF5 and replace it with C-41 fix, they are essentially the same idea.



Most of the RT B&W developers are pretty similar in effect - D-76-ish but neither as fine-grained nor quite as sharp, at least from the negs I've worked with (and scanned or darkroom printed to some fairly large sizes - 30x with appropriate lenses). It is also the case that a lot of the machines are not (and were not) run with maximum quality in mind. Xtol or XT-3 in a dip-dunk is overall a better solution.

RT systems are more useful for B&W if you work with a limited range of emulsions (i.e. C-41 and E-6 are much better with them) and a specific array of required density manipulations that can fit the machine limitations, coupled to a hands-off throughput need. That said, Ilford's 1+1+5 times do generally look like they should sit OK with the speed ranges of the Colenta for most films (though how long it takes to adjust 5L of dev by a few Celsius to accommodate the outliers is a key question).



Do you have height limits in your workspace?

I can get behind what @gbroadbridge says in terms of the investment window and diversification. It's sensible. Then again, running a business and certainly one you've put your heart into inherently carries components of being very much not sensible. It's probably the only way to make it - especially in a niche industry that will likely continue to exist in the margins of society/industry at large. And while I think diversification reduces risk in general - you can only spread out yourself so thin before gaps start to appear. To run a business, you need focus and dedication, first and foremost. This makes it a bit of an all-or-nothing scenario.

I guess if I were in your place I'd commit to the cause, but ensure that my personal risk would be limited. IDK about the legal structures/entities you'd need where you operate. I know how I'd set it up where I live and how to divert the financial risk to the business while avoiding creditors form showing up my doorstep at home if the excrement hits the ventilator and the business turns out to not be able to float itself. Again, IDK what's possible in your case, and there's also a cultural aspect to it for sure. Either way, I'd try to make for myself a kind of sandbox within which I feel I can play more or less safely, thereby making it possible to commit to the venture fully. I know, this has nothing to do with purchasing the machine. Sorry about that.


I really don't know either and I also recognize that the manual alternative doesn't sound very appealing - especially if you're going to grow your business once you've acquired the new machine. So maybe that's one other thing to think about - risk management, or a fallback scenario. What's your plan in case the machine breaks? How much downtime will you accept before you kick Plan B into motion? Try to work on the machine for one day to get it fixed; if that doesn't work - then what? Manual processing? Divert the bulk of the work to machines (e.g. the ATL2500) used for other tasks, temporarily? What kind of provisions do you have to make in your commercial terms to create room for this kind of thing?

To address risk, it's a complicated question. Being an entrepreneur in any field has more inherent risk than most people would be comfortable with. When I quit my job, moved to rural Maine, and bought a Phototherm + Fuji SP3000, that was a super risky thing to do! We slowly over time built the business and acquired the usual list of 2nd hand lab purchases. The Phototherm gave way to a Noritsu V30, then we got a Jobo ATL3 (new old stock!) and then a completely refurbished RemjetLab ATL2500. We moved into the commercial space, added an HS1800 (and had already been running 2x Frontiers). I explored the idea of a Colenta at that time but found the COLEX on Cres. So up to now I've been reducing risk by adding newer / better processing equipment and more scanners. You reduce the points of failure. However, there is still a limit to that. HS1800s burn out LEDs, Fuji Frontiers burn out image processing chips...all that stuff is harder to find over time. Our main resource for service and support regarding the Fuji Frontiers and Nori scanners, PTS, closed their doors at the beginning of this year. Now it's back to more of a wild west when it comes to getting things fixed. I sent a Noritsu carrier to one tech for service and it came back more broken than when I sent it in, for example.

----[Here's a story: The Colex was listed as having been essentially unused by the space that had acquired it a decade ago. They said they had it looked over by a technician who replaced some parts and gave it a clean bill of health. I wanted it H2O tested before I would purchase it of course. So the seller set it up and it would not power on! But I spoke with Colex USA and they said they believed we could get it running again, simple power issues can be resolved. So I got a massive discount, paid nearly 1/3rd of asking. When we got it here I sent the board to Colex who tested it, among some other things. We had an electrician wire it all in and look things over. So when I re-installed the board I expected it to start right up, but no luck. You flip the big switch and nothing. So I spent a couple days troubleshooting everything and basically pulling my hair out...until a little detail occurred to me. The unit is entirely controlled by the tiny little digital timer. The LR44 battery in said timer was dead. I swapped the battery and BOOM! Colex comes to life. Over time we've had issues with the motor, some bushings in the rollers had to be replaced. The dryer kept burning out fuses until we turned the power down. Early on the drive chain kept coming off but I finally fixed that too. In fact for the last 1.5 years it's been eerily problem free. Fingers crossed it keeps working like that.]

So there is always risk. If the Colex just up and dies today, we're in trouble. If the Jobo has an electrical fault, we're in trouble. If the Noritsu kicks it, we're in real trouble. If I break a leg, we're in real trouble. If WWIII breaks out, also quite bad! How do you mitigate risk?

Well for one we do operate as an LLC so yes, bankruptcy is a practical option. That being said we are very far from a risk of that. Our customer and revenue growth has been amazing for the past few years and the general interest in the analog arts is high. When it comes to outside factors you have to be anecdotal but Lomo wouldn't be releasing a new very capable P&S camera if they felt like they'd have a hard time selling it. Same story with the Pentax 17 or Rollei 35 AF. Kodak is abundantly clear about the growth they see in their film sales. People complain about the prices and go on buying film. Ilford/Harman is continuing to make a lot of investments in the future of analog. Even Cambo is making investments in their repro/scanning stuff. We got an RPS-500E platform and just invested in the Linos 150/5.6 .76 lens, and helical mount for the Hasselblad X2DII. Hopefully once multi shot comes out it'll be a really powerful scan cam. Again, my conjecture is that AI arts are going to make physical arts more popular, not less. Colenta is absolutely selling processors and they are making a new scanner. There is also a 'new' Italian model lab scanner (), the Auralab, and the IR version of the Filmomat set up. I don't think these products would come to market if people thought that the ground was hardening on analog.

In fact, this art form that we call 'photography' I do believe will revert to being primarily an analog medium. Very soon you'll probably be able to AI generate every product shot, on-model clothing shot, and even architectural image. I can honestly even imagine AI being able to generate the 'perfect' set of wedding photos based on all the phone pics taken that day. We're already seeing computational photography in every smart phone image...we're probably not that far from a world where you take a selfie and the AI 'perfects' it. So if you're a 'photographer' or seeking out 'photography', you're probably going to be looking for in images primarily made in a camera that have some separation from 'big tech'. We're planning on being there to service that future. I realize that this is unprovable thought experimentation but when you get into owning a lab, you are a true believer.

Now onto the technical requirements.

For our Jobo processed B&W we have the machine do 2.5 minutes of changing water baths, I think that's a suitable stop bath. I'll look into using C41 fixer, it would be cheaper that's for sure! We don't want to run a hypo clear stage though, is that still possible with C41 fix? Our final wash is 10 minutes of changing water. The Jobo does a fill and dump every 30 seconds or so.

This is our space where we have the COLEX. To install the Roboline here I think we'd need to build out a new 'room' to lock out the light. It's certainly possible but I think it would be quite the undertaking. We are renters here too so there is a bit of a limit on what we can do. In my ideal imaging I'd have 2 RT machines next to each other, both with daylight load lids. You can see how we use the ILFORD darkroom tent now, which is fine...but is an eyesore. Also the zippers break down about once a year so we have to replace them. If I had my ultimate druthers we'd move into a more industrial space where I could build out whatever I want, but moving at this stage would be a bit catastrophic...if such a space even becomes available.

But it remains frustrating to me that 2 Colenta RT machines would be similar in price to 1 Roboline dip and dunk, which I would consider the ultimate for us. We do still do a fair amount of sheet film, which we run in Expert Drums. I would love to have a dry to dry set up for all types of film minus E6.

Sorry for the rambling reply, but I am enthusiastic about what I do and I like to talk about it.

 

[koraks]

I'll look into using C41 fixer, it would be cheaper that's for sure! We don't want to run a hypo clear stage though, is that still possible with C41 fix?

Yeah, don't worry; C41 fixer is really just rapid fixer that's very slightly acidic. If anything, it washes out faster from an emulsion than regular acidic B&W fixer. The only issue you will need to keep in mind in your setup is (1) you may want to use a stop bath and (2) the fixer may require slightly higher replenishment if you factor in the carryover from that stop bath. Now, I doubt that #2 will be very dramatic, but #1 is a good idea to keep in mind. You may still get away with no stop bath even if you use a near-pH neutral C41 fixer though. So this is likely splitting hairs. But you're running a commercial operation, not a home user who just risks his Sunday afternoon walking-the-dog shots.

Our final wash is 10 minutes of changing water.

That should be plenty either way.

Sorry for the rambling reply, but I am enthusiastic about what I do and I like to talk about it.

Nah man, I appreciate it and it's cool to see that you're having fun with this and business is booming.

 

[Lachlan Young]

For our Jobo processed B&W we have the machine do 2.5 minutes of changing water baths, I think that's a suitable stop bath.

10 seconds of acid stop will stop development definitively and is much less wasteful (albeit most Autolabs run the stop for a minute). While acid stops were potentially an issue with a poorly hardened emulsion of 75 years ago after development in a carbonate buffered developer, they have really been a non-issue (save in the minds of those who write cookbooks) for decades. From a process control and efficiency/ cost control perspective, they eliminate a potential source of error with valuable client work.

We don't want to run a hypo clear stage though, is that still possible with C41 fix? Our final wash is 10 minutes of changing water. The Jobo does a fill and dump every 30 seconds or so.

C-41 fix is more efficient throughout, and the higher pH makes it wash out more readily (you can immediately see that as it removes the dyes from B&W at a level that Rapid Fixes buffered for hardener compatibility don't). The whole point of TF-5 was to make something roughly equivalent to C-41 fix. A quick look at gelatin swell to pH coefficient tells you a lot about why hardening fixes were the pH they were/ are - and why higher pH fixes will get in, do the job, and get out more effectively. C-41 fix & TF-5 are essentially buffered to the point that balances between them not smelling unpleasantly ammoniac and being the most efficient pH (given that C-41 emulsions are more difficult to fix than B&W and have to be inherently very highly hardened).

To install the Roboline here I think we'd need to build out a new 'room' to lock out the light. It's certainly possible but I think it would be quite the undertaking.

It's much less complex than you'd think - a couple of light-tight stud walls and a door, which are not that difficult to demolish when/ if you need to move. Colenta seem to be happy to supply a shaped wall panel for the machine/ wall interface. The space needed is not significant, if you've ever seen/ visited other dip/ dunk installations. Obviously, the amenability of your landlord will be the key factor here, and the ability to deliver 8kW of power for the machine & handle 200kg+ of chemistry + machine weight on top of that.

 

[foc]

The joys of contemplating new equipment. All choices have their pros and some cons. A lot can be down to personal choice.

As @Lachlan Young mentioned, power consumption and weight should be considered.

Is your premises a domestic electricity supply or can it be upgraded? A new Colenta (depending on model) has electricity requirements of 4.5 - 10kW. Add up all your equipment kW and then add 30% and that might give you an idea of your power requirements

Will the new equipment be on a ground floor with a concrete base? Or on a 1st/2nd floor. If you have a leak what will happen? A rough rule of thumb is that 1L of chemical is roughly equal to 1kg in weight. So add all your tank capacities and also add the amount of replenisher you will store and that should give you a rough weight requirement. I personally prefer a ground-floor concrete base.

Dip & Dunk vs other. I have operated both (in the past) and personally, I am not a fan of D&D. I felt it was more prone to operator error, more than leader card/roller drive processor. Are all staff able to operate all equipment?

Regarding borrowings, I would suggest no more that 30% of your annual turnover and repaid in no more than 60 monthly payments. You can depreciate your new equipment, in your accounts, over 8 years. I would also think about allocating a 10 year life span to any new equipment. After that either replace with new or a full refurbishment.

A quick tip I used regarding equipment repayments. Since the loan repayments were budgeted in the cashflow forecast, once they were paid off I still allowed for the repayment figure in the cashflow forecast BUT to a savings account. That was put toward the next equipment purchase, a small nest egg.

It is good that you are thinking ahead, even if it's 25 years. I personally would only forecast 2-3 years ahead, but rest assured, there will be a high and a low in the economy, roughly every 10 years. Maybe chat to your financial advisor and think about contributing 20% of your salary, per year, to a private pension fund for the next 25 years.

In my country, Ireland, if a company makes a large profit, it can reduce its corporation tax liability by allocating part of the profits to top up the pension fund. Again, ask your financial advisor.

Best of luck with your acquisitions, and keep us posted.

 

[Carnie Bob]

I am a Lab Rat, I have printed for others for now 50 years and at 72 years of age passing on my expertise to a young woman half my age to work the business
and continue our mandate with my help as long as I can walk the darkroom floor and also still have my marbles together enough to provide good assistance to her.

Regarding C41 and RA4- I will give you my personal thoughts and you can take them for what they are.

In 1998 I was an all analogue lab, but I purchased the last run of Colenta Cibachrome machines, and used enlargers to make prints, I saw the digital wave and
at that time I was still young enough to learn a whole new set of skills, Photoshop and Lambda laser exposure became my tools.

The Lambda was 225K purchase and for 15 years I kept it, paid for the moves , purchased the lasers and basically paid the rent for the time I had it.

Covid hit- business dropped and I realized I was hanging on to an anchor ( Lambda) and I also understood that I was making Black and White prints five ways- Enlarger Silver, inkjet negs to Silver , inkjet negs to Palladium, Lambda Silver negs to both processes and direct silver Lambda prints.
In Canada I felt I was the only vendor doing wet process in silver and palladium and the sudden comprehension I was doing it 4 more ways than any competition was pretty silly.
I had dumped the smelly RA4 process earlier and converted to inkjet prints for colour work and also at the same time was developing tri colour gum bichromate over Palladium.

The lambda took up 200sq ft of space and it was time to get rid of the anchor... scrap - the investment had played its course.

So my take on this is its a long game and you should look at the photoworld and see where you want your lab to fit... Cindy Sherman is now replacing all her Cprints
I have replaced C prints for artists for the last 10 years that were done by me or other labs..... see where I am going with this?????

Take a trip to NY and visit Griffin Editions and see their new systems, flat bed pigment base layered printing... If I was younger I would do this.

also if I was younger I would start doing Polymer Plates direct from inkjet to Gravure. multi colour , this would be a great investment and a direct learning curve.

The young woman working with me has seen both options and I will let her carve out her place in our market, I will continue with my hand made prints and life goes on.

I would not invest in technology (RA4) unless you are only interested in the quick bucks there is right now in that market. Some of my friends own hugely successful
boutique minilab operations and I send all requests for film and quick prints to them.

You decide where you want to be in 10 years and go for it
Bob

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

The joys of contemplating new equipment. All choices have their pros and some cons. A lot can be down to personal choice.

As @Lachlan Young mentioned, power consumption and weight should be considered.

Is your premises a domestic electricity supply or can it be upgraded? A new Colenta (depending on model) has electricity requirements of 4.5 - 10kW. Add up all your equipment kW and then add 30% and that might give you an idea of your power requirements

Will the new equipment be on a ground floor with a concrete base? Or on a 1st/2nd floor. If you have a leak what will happen? A rough rule of thumb is that 1L of chemical is roughly equal to 1kg in weight. So add all your tank capacities and also add the amount of replenisher you will store and that should give you a rough weight requirement. I personally prefer a ground-floor concrete base.

Dip & Dunk vs other. I have operated both (in the past) and personally, I am not a fan of D&D. I felt it was more prone to operator error, more than leader card/roller drive processor. Are all staff able to operate all equipment?

Regarding borrowings, I would suggest no more that 30% of your annual turnover and repaid in no more than 60 monthly payments. You can depreciate your new equipment, in your accounts, over 8 years. I would also think about allocating a 10 year life span to any new equipment. After that either replace with new or a full refurbishment.

A quick tip I used regarding equipment repayments. Since the loan repayments were budgeted in the cashflow forecast, once they were paid off I still allowed for the repayment figure in the cashflow forecast BUT to a savings account. That was put toward the next equipment purchase, a small nest egg.

It is good that you are thinking ahead, even if it's 25 years. I personally would only forecast 2-3 years ahead, but rest assured, there will be a high and a low in the economy, roughly every 10 years. Maybe chat to your financial advisor and think about contributing 20% of your salary, per year, to a private pension fund for the next 25 years.

In my country, Ireland, if a company makes a large profit, it can reduce its corporation tax liability by allocating part of the profits to top up the pension fund. Again, ask your financial advisor.

Best of luck with your acquisitions, and keep us posted.

In terms of power consumption, the Colex 20" RTF we run now draws about 10kw, so if we go to 2 RTs I think it would be slightly less or the same, and the same if we do Dip and Dunk. We actually do not pay for our electrical usage in this building, because the systems are so tied together they can't determine usage for individual renters. So, from a cost perspective, it's not an issue. I think from a utility perspective my concern is with water temp incoming to the machine. It's Maine so cold in the winter and 20C or so in the Summer assuming I'm not drawing from the water heater. The Colex uses a lot of water (also not something we have to pay a metered rate for). If I was very concerned about it then the Rapid Access model would make the most sense because it does not require a water connection. The B&W machine does, but the sales rep indicated to me that as long as the water comes in cold, it's good...the machine tempers the wash baths. I would hope the same is true for the Dip and Dunk.

The floor is not concrete, there is a basement utility space below us. We drain directly into the floor through a pipe we had fitted for the Colex. Yes, spills are annoying. We have 2 wet dry vacs. Again, if I had my druthers we'd be in a semi-industrial space...but druthers I do not have. I would think the heavier Colentas would be in line with the weight of the Colex, it's a big machine with big tankage. It hasn't fallen through the floor yet!

It would be important to me that staff could run any machine we get independently. Part of our goals for the coming years is to free ourselves up (my wife and I run the shop together) so that we don't have to close when we go on vacation, even if we run with some reduced services. So again, that's points to the simpler RT machines. However, if they quote me a price for 2 RTs and it's the same as 1 D&D that does both B&W (in Xtol) and C41, and sheet film, it's hard to say no to that. People can be trained up. We now staff pros who get a lot of training, and I'm happy to say we pay them pretty decently for our area! I'm proud that we offer arts based employment out here. A lotta folks go to school for photography these days with dim job prospects, but our employee uses her degree every day.

I am a Lab Rat, I have printed for others for now 50 years and at 72 years of age passing on my expertise to a young woman half my age to work the business
and continue our mandate with my help as long as I can walk the darkroom floor and also still have my marbles together enough to provide good assistance to her.

Regarding C41 and RA4- I will give you my personal thoughts and you can take them for what they are.

In 1998 I was an all analogue lab, but I purchased the last run of Colenta Cibachrome machines, and used enlargers to make prints, I saw the digital wave and
at that time I was still young enough to learn a whole new set of skills, Photoshop and Lambda laser exposure became my tools.

The Lambda was 225K purchase and for 15 years I kept it, paid for the moves , purchased the lasers and basically paid the rent for the time I had it.

Covid hit- business dropped and I realized I was hanging on to an anchor ( Lambda) and I also understood that I was making Black and White prints five ways- Enlarger Silver, inkjet negs to Silver , inkjet negs to Palladium, Lambda Silver negs to both processes and direct silver Lambda prints.
In Canada I felt I was the only vendor doing wet process in silver and palladium and the sudden comprehension I was doing it 4 more ways than any competition was pretty silly.
I had dumped the smelly RA4 process earlier and converted to inkjet prints for colour work and also at the same time was developing tri colour gum bichromate over Palladium.

The lambda took up 200sq ft of space and it was time to get rid of the anchor... scrap - the investment had played its course.

So my take on this is its a long game and you should look at the photoworld and see where you want your lab to fit... Cindy Sherman is now replacing all her Cprints
I have replaced C prints for artists for the last 10 years that were done by me or other labs..... see where I am going with this?????

Take a trip to NY and visit Griffin Editions and see their new systems, flat bed pigment base layered printing... If I was younger I would do this.

also if I was younger I would start doing Polymer Plates direct from inkjet to Gravure. multi colour , this would be a great investment and a direct learning curve.

The young woman working with me has seen both options and I will let her carve out her place in our market, I will continue with my hand made prints and life goes on.

I would not invest in technology (RA4) unless you are only interested in the quick bucks there is right now in that market. Some of my friends own hugely successful
boutique minilab operations and I send all requests for film and quick prints to them.

You decide where you want to be in 10 years and go for it
Bob

Thanks Bob, love to hear stories like this. I wish I was able to see the Cibas you made, it's one of the processes I only ever got to see in galleries, not try myself. We don't actually do a ton of printing. I do run an Epson D1070 for every day 4x6s, of which a minority of our customers actually order. We run the printer maybe 3-5 times a day. It pays for itself. I used to have an Epson P6000 and I briefly offered Piezography printing. P6000 died, so now I 'downgraded' to a Canon Pro-1100. I have a full printing darkroom and have done silver prints for artists but ultimately I ran out of time to do it with all the scanning we do. So mostly the darkroom is for personal work and employee usage....but even that being said I'm impressed with what I can do with scans and the Canon printer. I can scan a large format sheet and get sufficient resolution for a 600dpi print, and they look mighty fine.

What killed RA4 for me is the current Fuji offering. I know I can buy the better papers cut down from rolls but it's just more friction than I care to deal with. Not sure what they're thinking with that stock, it's so low contrast. Prints just look muddy and flat.

I did always wonder why for commercial printing, did Lambda not remain the preference over inkjet? It just seems like Inkjet large format printers are a pain. They are incredibly expensive to run and have lots of problems...you really have to be cooking to make your money back on printing. I'm aware people make it work, but I have to say I don't know how. Especially when you add in all the handling requirements a fine art print requires.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Fuji makes a whole lineup of RA4 papers. Their Fujiflex Supergloss is a fabulous product with the same look as Cibachrome but easier to use, itself being standard RA4. Yes, all but one product line - the product you apparently don't like - are available in rolls only. I'm not going to press the point, since you don't have commerical RA printing in mind.
Just general information. And most of these papers do just fine with traditional optical enlargement - no need for a Lamdba or other laser printer for sake of personal printing.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Fuji makes a whole lineup of RA4 papers. Their Fujiflex Supergloss is a fabulous product with the same look as Cibachrome but easier to use, itself being standard RA4. Yes, all but one product line - the product you apparently don't like - are available in rolls only. I'm not going to press the point, since you don't have commerical RA printing in mind.
Just general information. And most of these papers do just fine with traditional optical enlargement - no need for a Lamdba or other laser printer for sake of personal printing.

I'm aware but the one I don't like is the only one sold as cut sheets. I just don't think it prints well in the darkroom. I actually have a small table top processor but for the short print runs I do it's hardly worth making and filling it. Inkjet is just winning all the arguments at least in my shop.