Lens advice for medium format

[Mike Chalmers]

Hi folks,

I acquired a lot of darkroom equipment last year to initially process my own C-41 film - which has gone really well so far.

I've been looking forward to starting to use the Durst M670 Color - although setting this up has taken some time while I work out some challenges.

The enlarger came with a Durst 50mm lens, but I'm aware this may not be best for what I shoot. While I do shoot 35mm on occasion, mostly I shoot medium format: 6x7 and sometimes 6x4.5.

I'm wondering if anyone has advice for the best lens to get that perhaps covers both medium format sizes, or if there are other things like magnifiers or any other options to me.

I would obviously like very high quality but I don't have much of a budget for this at the moment, especially when coupled with chemicals and papers (along with the constant rising price of Portra) so I'd love to hear any economical options.

I completed an 'intro to colour darkroom' course which included a day of printing, but any other advice for a newbie would also be appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[etn]

The typical enlarging lens for medium format is around 80 or 90mm. Different sizes (645 / 67) is probably just a matter of raising the column a bit more to reach your desired enlargement. (I printed 35mm with my 90mm lens, was a bit of a stretch but it worked).
The Rodenstock Apo-Rodagon should be very good for what you want to do, but can go for £ 500 or more. You could try a regular lens (e.g. Rodagon "not APO") and see if this fits your bill.

 

[markbau]

The 80mm APO Rodagon covers 67 but the 80mm Componon S does not cover 67. The 90mm APO Componon might be your best bet as it covers 67 and of course 645. Likewise the 100mm Componon S will cover both.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

Thanks etn,

The Rodenstock Apo-Rodagon should be very good for what you want to do, but can go for £ 500 or more. You could try a regular lens (e.g. Rodagon "not APO") and see if this fits your bill.

Yeah I came across the Apo-Rodagons but yes, out of my price range. Is there a considerable difference between these and non-apo?

My use will likely only be up to 12" x 10" prints, I have no idea if this makes any differences in guidance...

The 80mm APO Rodagon covers 67 but the 80mm Componon S does not cover 67. The 90mm APO Componon might be your best bet as it covers 67 and of course 645. Likewise the 100mm Componon S will cover both.

Thanks for the information - the 90mm looks good but seems FAR out of my price range, although the 100 S might be possible.. As per my question to etn, how much of a difference is there APO to non-APO?

 

[bdial]

Something in the 90 - 105mm range would be good for your 6x7 negs and would work fine for moderate enlargements for your 6x4.5 negs. But you may want an 80 for 645 negs for larger print sizes, an 11x14 with a 105 may be a stretch for the enlarger's height.

Most people say it's hard or impossible to tell the difference between prints from an APO lens vs something like a 6 good element "conventional" lens for B&W until you get to very large print sizes, say 16x20 and bigger.
There are lots of threads in here discussing the pros and cons. Everyone has their favorites, and there are many very good lenses from other makers, but if you choose from El Nikkor, Componon-S or Rodagon (in any order), any bad prints will not be due to the lens unless you happen to pick a broken one.

 

[markbau]

Thanks etn,



Yeah I came across the Apo-Rodagons but yes, out of my price range. Is there a considerable difference between these and non-apo?

My use will likely only be up to 12" x 10" prints, I have no idea if this makes any differences in guidance...



Thanks for the information - the 90mm looks good but seems FAR out of my price range, although the 100 S might be possible.. As per my question to etn, how much of a difference is there APO to non-APO?

I used to be a sceptic as to the worth of APO lenses, believing that they were only noticeably better for colour work and for very large prints, but as a result of a thread on APUG, I dusted off my Schneider 90mm APO and now believe that whilst both the 90mm APO and the 100mm non APO Componon S are equally as sharp, the APO lens prints with slightly better local contrast than the non APO 100mm. (I'm now thinking of selling my 100mm non APO Componon S) Interestingly though, the 90mm APO definitely has light fall off that the 100mm non APO does not have when printing 67 negs.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

Something in the 90 - 105mm range would be good for your 6x7 negs and would work fine for moderate enlargements for your 6x4.5 negs. But you may want an 80 for 645 negs for larger print sizes, an 11x14 with a 105 may be a stretch for the enlarger's height.
Most people say it's hard or impossible to tell the difference between prints from an APO lens vs something like a 6 good element "conventional" lens for B&W until you get to very large print sizes, say 16x20 and bigger.
There are lots of threads in here discussing the pros and cons. Everyone has their favorites, and there are many very good lenses from other makers, but if you choose from El Nikkor, Componon-S or Rodagon (in any order), any bad prints will not be due to the lens unless you happen to pick a broken one.

Solid advice, thanks. I think I'll be on the lookout for an appropriate 90mm from one of the more economical lines you've mentioned.

I used to be a sceptic as to the worth of APO lenses, believing that they were only noticeably better for colour work and for very large prints, but as a result of a thread on APUG, I dusted off my Schneider 90mm APO and now believe that whilst both the 90mm APO and the 100mm non APO Componon S are equally as sharp, the APO lens prints with slightly better local contrast than the non APO 100mm. (I'm now thinking of selling my 100mm non APO Componon S) Interestingly though, the 90mm APO definitely has light fall off that the 100mm non APO does not have when printing 67 negs.

Interesting and hopefully I'll build up to an APO lens but I reckon I'll start with something considerably cheaper while I figure things out.

Thanks guys, fyi I will be printing colour exclusively.

 

[etn]

I found a Rodenstock APO-Rodagon 90mm at some point and "upgraded" my 80mm Componon. The difference was very minor and in line with what Markbau says 2 posts above. Never saw light fall off with mine, but the largest I print is 6x6 as well as 24 x 67 (Xpan). I am not a case for vignetting I guess...

PS. I print B&W exclusively.

 

[mklw1954]

Use 80mm for 6x4.5 and you may be able to get by with that for 6x7 but 90mm or 105mm is typically used for 6x7. You can usually get a good 6-element 80mm lens (EL-Nikkor, Rodenstock Rodagon, Schneider Componon, Minolta C.E. Rokkor) for about $60 on ebay. 90mm and 105mm are typically more expensive, around $100 or so.

Note that brand lens versions are different in quality. In general the versions ending in -on (e.g., Rodenstock Rodagon, Schneider Componon, Fuji Fujinon) are the better 6-element versions compared to those ending in -ar (e.g., Rodenstock Rogonar, Schneider Componar, Fuji Fujinar), although you might take a chance on one of these latter. I have 4-element Minolta E 50mm f4.5 and Nikon 75mm f4 lenses that are very good.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

Use 80mm for 6x4.5 and you may be able to get by with that for 6x7 but 90mm or 105mm is typically used for 6x7. You can usually get a good 6-element 80mm lens (EL-Nikkor, Rodenstock Rodagon, Schneider Componon, Minolta C.E. Rokkor) for about $60 on ebay. 90mm and 105mm are typically more expensive, around $100 or so.

Note that brand lens versions are different in quality. In general the versions ending in -on (e.g., Rodenstock Rodagon, Schneider Componon, Fuji Fujinon) are the better 6-element versions compared to those ending in -ar (e.g., Rodenstock Rogonar, Schneider Componar, Fuji Fujinar), although you might take a chance on one of these latter. I have 4-element Minolta E 50mm f4.5 and Nikon 75mm f4 lenses that are very good.

Excellent, more great information. Always appreciate the generous advice on this forum and this is ll giving me a lot to think about. It sounds like a decet 6-element 90mm would be good for my starter lens. Thanks for the tips, @mklw1954

 

[Pieter12]

I can't remember where I read this, but the most enlarger lenses perform best a stop or two from wide open and deteriorated quickly from there. Some are best wide open--I think that is the case with some of the APO lenses.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

I can't remember where I read this, but the most enlarger lenses perform best a stop or two from wide open and deteriorated quickly from there. Some are best wide open--I think that is the case with some of the APO lenses.

Yes, this is what I've read also and my plan to keep things simple was to use my lens two stops closed, until I found a reason not to.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Pieter, the idea behind that is that the more closed the aperture, the more diffraction can have an effect on the image. On lower quality lenses, the lower the aperture the more effect abberations can have, so it is usually a trade off. But on the highest quality lenses you can sometimes have high performance near the max aperture. I very much doubt it ever is exactly at that aperture, though. It is very simple to test what aperture any given enlarging lens is best at: just look through a grain focuser and change it. I can clearly see that my apo-rodagon is worse at f11 than at f8. If you find that your best aperture is wide open you will also have to invest in some serious neutral density to avoid print times less than 5 seconds.

I have apo-rodagons in 50mm and 90mm and they are very good. The 50 is seriously better than the triplets that came with my enlarger. I used to use an ancient Companon 80mm for medium format that I got on eBay for $20. It was also very good. If I hadn't gotten the apo-rodagons for free, I would not want to pay hundreds of dollars for them, especially since I do not print larger than 8x10.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

to test what aperture any given enlarging lens is best at: just look through a grain focuser and change it

Good tip, I'll be sure to do this when I get to it.

I used to use an ancient Companon 80mm for medium format that I got on eBay for $20. It was also very good. If I hadn't gotten the apo-rodagons for free, I would not want to pay hundreds of dollars for them, especially since I do not print larger than 8x10

Makes sense, I do not plan on making larger prints (at this point in time).

BTW - what happens if you use an 80mm - 105mm (and above I suppose) on, say 35mm film?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nothing particularly bad - you will have to raise the head of your enlarger higher to get the same size of enlargement. And you will be limited in how big you can go. Also, the higher you raise the head the more effect vibration can have on your sharpness.

 

[Pieter12]

Good tip, I'll be sure to do this when I get to it.



Makes sense, I do not plan on making larger prints (at this point in time).

BTW - what happens if you use an 80mm - 105mm (and above I suppose) on, say 35mm film?

You'll be in the sweet spot of that longer lens, but you will have to raise the enlarger head higher for any given print size. I am unfamiliar with the Durst, but on my Omega the condenser head needs to be configured for the lens focal length.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

Nothing particularly bad - you will have to raise the head of your enlarger higher to get the same size of enlargement. And you will be limited in how big you can go. Also, the higher you raise the head the more effect vibration can have on your sharpness.

Got it. Thanks

 

[Mike Chalmers]

Here's another thought, and I appreciate your support while I go on tangents:

Why can't you use 50mm with 6x7 technically? For instance, I imagine I could still use it for crops of the frame? Maybe this will be helpful to practice before I can get my hands on a more suitabl lens?

 

[MattKing]

Yes you can use a 50mm lens to enlarge a portion (say 24mm x 36mm) of a 6x7 negative, as long as you can centre that portion in the light path.
One of the vagaries of buying used enlarging lenses is that, relatively speaking, there seems to be fewer 90mm lenses around then most other sizes. I expect that is because 6x7 was a relatively modern format.
I have a good quality Beseler HD 90mm lens which I put to good use from time to time, but because my enlarger has a very long column I'm just as likely to make use of the 105mm lens that I have on my most used lens turret. That lens is more convenient if I am making smaller prints.
That turret currently has a 60mm lens - good for 135 film - an 80mm lens - good for 6x4.5 and 6x6 negatives - and a 105mm lens - good for all but the largest prints from 6x7 negatives.
If I were you, I would look first for an 80mm lens that is designed to work with 6x7, and then follow up with a 105mm lens.
Be sure to look for the appropriate lens boards/mounts as well. If possible, you want to have the correct mount on each lens - dis-mounting and re-mounting lenses regularly can get really old, really fast.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

Hi Matt, thanks for your input

If I were you, I would look first for an 80mm lens that is designed to work with 6x7, and then follow up with a 105mm lens.

That makes sense, I'll widen my search to both 80mm and 90mm and see what comes up. There's a few around that I've got my eye on but will have to wait a bit until I've got more disposable cash.

Be sure to look for the appropriate lens boards/mounts as well. If possible, you want to have the correct mount on each lens - dis-mounting and re-mounting lenses regularly can get really old, really fast.

I imagine I'll be using the lens for 6x7 around 95% of the time, so I'll likely not have to change the mount often, although I would like to build up a collection of all the equipment I need.

Another question - is there anything I have to consider with regards to lenses when making contact sheets of different film sizes?

 

[etn]

Here's another thought, and I appreciate your support while I go on tangents:

Why can't you use 50mm with 6x7 technically? For instance, I imagine I could still use it for crops of the frame? Maybe this will be helpful to practice before I can get my hands on a more suitabl lens?

I see 2 potential limitations:
1) the image circle of your lens might not cover the entire 6x7 frame (check this in the datasheet of your lens),
2) the head of your enlarger might be too low, which makes it unpractical (e.g. not enough space for a grain focuser)

 

[Mike Chalmers]

I see 2 potential limitations:
1) the image circle of your lens might not cover the entire 6x7 frame (check this in the datasheet of your lens),
2) the head of your enlarger might be too low, which makes it unpractical (e.g. not enough space for a grain focuser)

I suppose I should set it all up (currently boxed in the cupboard) and try it out and see what can and can't be done (I don't have chemicals yet but at least I can work it out for when I do.

Tangentially - I don't have negative carriers for 6x7 or 6x4.5 either (just 35mm and something else, maybe 6x6) but am planning to make some DIY ones up (after seeing the low supply / going rate of the sizes I need).

 

[etn]

I imagine I'll be using the lens for 6x7 around 95% of the time, so I'll likely not have to change the mount often

If your Durst is like mine, let's have a beer (bad joke - Durst means thirst in German ), the mount is M39, which is very common. Chances are that most, if not all, the lenses you will find will be M39, which makes changing lenses a breeze.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

If your Durst is like mine

It is indeed 39!

I have a German friend so am used to these bad jokes

 

[Paul Howell]

Over the years I've gathered up many lens 50mm for 35m 60mm for 4X4 also works with 35mm and 6X4.5, 75mm and 80 for 6X6, 90mm for 6X7 100 and 105 for 6X9 and 135, 150 and 162mm for 4X5. The 162 is for 4X5 from 4X5. I dont have any APO lens, have not enlarged color in many years, but might get a 50 APO as I am gearing up for color in a week or so. Most 4 element and 5 elements lens do well at 8X10 to 11X14, 6 element likely do better at 16X20 and larger. I find that my old Wollensake and Kodak Extar lens are just sharp as my German lens at 8X10 and 11X14.

In terms of a contact sheet, I use a lens matched to the format set to F8, with the enlarger as close to 8X10 as I can get and still cover the negative file page, then use the same time I use for most of 8X10s. With 75watt blub grade 2 filter, around 22 seconds for most RC VC papers. I dont think it would matter much if I used say 50mm for all formats, just a habit I got into.