Kodak XTOL trade concern announcment

[Kino]

Matt,

I desperately hope you are right. I'm not a Kodak hater; quite the opposite.
However, so many traditionally great companies in the World are now staffed by people who simply don't have any real connection to the products their companies produce.

 

[braxus]

Matt. That batch of Xtol we got from Nicole is indeed from the bad batch dates mentioned. I have 1 left sealed as well. I emailed Kodak. As mentioned I don't think Nicole is going to order more of this with the issues its been having the past couple years. I did use my one package, with a little left in the holding bag. I had no issues with the negatives I developed, so I wonder what the problem really is?

 

[halfaman]

In a decade of using various of their chemistry I've never seen a problem. I've had one roll of film with issues. Contrast that with the common experience with Kodak films (backing paper, anyone?) and constant complaints about chemistry (XTOL, D-76, etc). I've got a bag of XTOL to return here, not for the first time. Never had that with Foma chemicals. Do what you like, of course, but people should know it's a reasonable option. Yes, it's more expensive.

Foma has a well deserved "dark" past with their roll films, I know too many people swearing that they will never use Foma films again to think it is just pure coincidence. Now could be different and would be great, but please don't try to put Foma history at any level close to Kodak's.

 

[relistan]

Foma has a well deserved "dark" past with their roll films, I know too many people swearing that they will never use Foma films again to think it is just pure coincidence. Now could be different and would be great, but please don't try to put Foma history at any level close to Kodak's.

Lol ok. Who claimed their history was equivalent? People wanted an alternative, I suggested one that has worked well for me. But no matter what anyone suggests there will be someone who doesn't like it. Apparently that's you. I don't care to convince anyone. You now know it's an option, use it or don't.

 

[halfaman]

Foma has a well deserved "dark" past with their roll films, I know too many people swearing that they will never use Foma films again to think it is just pure coincidence. Now could be different and would be great, but please don't try to put Foma history at any level close to Kodak's.

Your point is absolutely valid to me even before you mention it, so you don't have to convince me... I use Foma films only in LF (sheets) and I am happy with Fomapan 100 and 200. I apologize for overreacting, it was produced by all the negativity accumulated in so many comments on this thread. I am not a Kodak fan but neither a hater.

 

[relistan]

Your point is absolutely valid to me even before you mention it, so you don't have to convince me... I use Foma films only in LF (sheets) and I am happy with Fomapan 100 and 200. I apologize for overreacting, it was produced by all the negativity accumulated in so many comments on this thread. I am not a Kodak fan but neither a hater.

Thanks Agreed, I am not a fan nor a hater of Kodak. I am a fan of ADOX, and have had good luck with lots of Foma stuff. But to me, anyone in this business who is committed to being in this business deserves support. I just wish it weren't so hard to support Kodak recently.

 

[Anon Ymous]

The closest formula would be the one in the patent.

However the nagging issue when scratch mixing anything with ascorbate is preventing the dreaded Fenton reaction (premature oxidation of ascorbate). You need the right iron sequestering agent, or else it will be difficult to predict shelf life.

Alternatively, D-76/ID-11 is very close to XTOL in working characteristics. XTOL is my favourite developer, and rather importantly in the history of black and white chemistry, was basically the first (and last) developer to improve on the D-76 speed-grain-sharpness balance. But the improvements are pretty small, so all things considered it is far easier to scratch mix D-76 than XTOL and get nearly/virtually the same results (same tonality, very slightly different image structure).

A bit late reply, but here it is...

I've tried a modified patent formula, with very good results. I didn't have DTPA-5Na, so I used sodium hexametaphosphate instead. I also didn't have any kodalk, so I used borax, with the addition of the right amount of sodium hydroxide. Sodium hydroxide was also used to neutralise the ascorbic acid I had, instead of sodium ascorbate. Finally, I don't have any Dimezone-S, so I just used the same amount of Phenidone. That's not a scientifically calculated value, I just assumed that it will work fairly well and had no clue whatsoever what an equivalent amount would be in terms of activity level. For the most part, I used deionised water and always kept full strength developer in plastic bottles, filled to the rim. The pH of this developer is a bit on the low side, because DTPA-5Na increases alkalinity, but a bit of sodium hydroxide will correct it. I never had any failures with all the batches that I made. 6 months old developer that stood unused in a soda bottle worked perfectly.

I then sourced some DTPA-5Na and mixed another small, 600ml batch. This time I used tap water and keep in mind that there is at least one iron pipe in the building. This time, the only practical difference between my mix and the patent formula is the substitution of Dimezone-S with Phenidone and pH was found to be 8,21, practically dead on. This time, I decided to reuse this batch and increase development time according to the datasheet instructions and it worked perfectly well. Actually, the last time I used it was 9 months after mixing this batch and 6-7 films had been developed with it, very close to the limit reported in the datasheet. The bottle looks ugly with deposits on the walls, but the solution is nice and clear, perhaps with a slight hint of yellowing, just like my replenished Xtol did many years ago.

So, am I lucky for not having Xtol (commercial or homebrew) die on me? Maybe, but I always had the suspicion that Xtol failures are far less frequent than what we think and basically overreported. In any case, a clip test before committing any film to it is a good idea and doesn't take too much time. There are no shops selling photographic chemicals around here, I need to order everything I need. I'm not a high volume user either, so 5l of Xtol is a tad too much. I'll keep mixing my homebrew Xtol, the results are very nice and it costs very little.

 

[relistan]

A bit late reply, but here it is...

Thanks for sharing! Good experience to know about.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Any point in storing the affected chemistry in airtight container with oxygen displacement, assuming its the bags and not the chemistry?

If a packaging problem is causing Xtol to fail, putting it in airtight storage after it spends potentially months in transit and on suppliers' shelves seems much like locking the barn after the horse has gone to join the circus.

 

[radiant]

Four in a row! What did I win?! 2020/02/25 on all of them!

 

[AgX]

I would bet that almost no upper management in Alaris has even developed a single roll of film in their lives, nor printed a single print in a darkroom.
Therein lies the problem to me...

This you got with other manufacturers from this sector too, where at least the directors of division once were chemists or engineers who gathered experience inside before.

 

[Kino]

This you got with other manufacturers from this sector too, where at least the directors of division once were chemists or engineers who gathered experience inside before.

While I am mildly annoyed at the inconvenience, I am far more concerned about the financial impact this could have on Tetenal, Alaris and the entire reseller network.
You have to figure economically they cannot absorb many of these large-scale errors without it having a detrimental impact on their operations.
Not a good start to 2021!

 

[pentaxuser]

While I am mildly annoyed at the inconvenience, I am far more concerned about the financial impact this could have on Tetenal, Alaris and the entire reseller network.
You have to figure economically they cannot absorb many of these large-scale errors without it having a detrimental impact on their operations.
Not a good start to 2021!

Yes my feelings as well.We can only hope that SinoPromise realises this issue of consumer confidence and have plans in effect that make the current problem with Xtol( whatever that problem is?) the last chemical problem

For anybody based in Europe and the U.K. it would appear that whatever Foma's "dark past" was in terms of its films, its chemicals which are made by them are fine. Relistan for one has confirmed his good experience with Fomadon Excel, a clone of Xtol. So there is clearly an alternative "Xtol" available outside of N. America

Presumably Sinopromise are aware of this from their diligence action prior to purchasing the Kodak Chemicals division from KA

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

For anybody based in Europe and the U.K. it would appear that whatever Foma's "dark past" was in terms of its films, its chemicals which are made by them are fine. Relistan for one has confirmed his good experience with Fomadon Excel, a clone of Xtol. So there is clearly an alternative "Xtol" available outside of N. America.

Fotoimpex warn in their product description of the "sudden death" Fomadone Excel may show, but not so for Xtol.

 

[wyofilm]

Xtol( whatever that problem is?)

I thought I was the only one still in the dark about what is wrong with the current batch of xtol. Is it correct to say that the Facebook post didn't elaborate about the 'trade concern'?

 

[pentaxuser]

I thought I was the only one still in the dark about what is wrong with the current batch of xtol. Is it correct to say that the Facebook post didn't elaborate about the 'trade concern'?

In a word and as far as I can see from information the answer is: No, it did not elaborate. Whatever the trade concern is we are none the wiser

pentaxuser

 

[radiant]

I've tried to be cool with this issue but now the "trade concern" starts to sound really wrong. It actually sounds like they try to hide what is the real problem. They have stated they have problem so a great way to make it even worse, is try to be more sneaky or secret about it. Why just not say "there was production error on these batches, we recall and replace all, sorries" ?

And now I have four bags within the "trade concerns" it starts to get a bit more serious. I have also almost 5l of mixed stock in bottles but I don't know what batch was it mixed from. Nice.

BTW if anyone gets response from "Kodak" then post here so we know if something is happening..

Please Adox, make Xtol replacement soon. Actually Adox please make replacement for everything

 

[Auer]

So from all of this,, as an upcoming first time Xtol user I should get the Eco Pro?

Seems everything could possibly have issues, but some just seem a bit...much?

Or I could just skip it alltogether I guess, I was only going to try it out of curiosity anyhow, not a real need.

 

[removedacct1]

So from all of this,, as an upcoming first time Xtol user I should get the Eco Pro?

Seems everything could possibly have issues, but some just seem a bit...much?

Or I could just skip it alltogether I guess, I was only going to try it out of curiosity anyhow, not a real need.

Xtol is an excellent developer, and in fact a superior developer for some film types. In my experience it preserves full film speed, produces very pleasing mid tones and doesn't allow hot highlights to build to unusable densities. It is definitely one of my favorite developers. I would suggest you try the EcoPro version of it at this time, given that Kodak Alaris is repeatedly having issues with the manufacture of their product. When and if K/A figures out how to consistently produce the original Xtol, then I will once again return to using it. But not yet.

 

[pentaxuser]

Fotoimpex warn in their product description of the "sudden death" Fomadone Excel may show, but not so for Xtol.

So a warning from Fotoimpex rather than Foma. Does Fotoimpex give any more details about it, such as how does it show, what is the time it can last in containers without any air etc?

Xtol does show by the way. The liquid stock turns a pale straw colour at which point in my film leader test its ability to turn the leader black is reduced but only slightly. I cannot say if it continues to become a deeper yellow colour if kept nor assuming it does turn a deeper yellow what the colour has to be before its developing power is reduced to the unsatisfactory category. I have never risked using it to get to that stage but it may be worth trying leaders until I reach a point that it is clear it will not develop to anywhere near a satisfactory level and see what colour it reaches and how long it has been since I first made it up. If it is of help to anyone, I noticed that a few days ago when I did my leader test it had turned a very pale straw colour. This colour almost vanished after a 1+1 dilution. The leader was very marginally less black. My test is how clear the tungsten filament is in a 100W clear bulb when the leader is held about 9 inches( 23 cms) from the bulb. That particular Xtol is now 21 month old.
I imagine that 1L of Excel in an airtight bottle has a good chance of being used before it "dies" whereas 5L of Xtol for a low volume film user introduces more uncertainty.

So vedostuu, there is an alternative out there called Fomadon Excel. If Excel dies quickly and suddenly then you may be no better off than with your current Xtol situation but if Xtol uncertainty has destroyed your faith in it then you may have little or nothing to lose by trying a1L pack of Excel

pentaxuser

So

 

[Anon Ymous]

It can certainly be done. The point I was making in my recommendation to Paul consists of the following:

1. Since D-76 is so close to XTOL in working characteristics, it would be a suitable substitution
2. Iron/copper sequestration is important for reliability. Sodium hexametaphosphate will not do it. In addition, the risk cannot be eliminated with the use of purified water as iron impurities can come from other ingredients such as sodium sulfite
3. D-76 is far easier for the average person to scratch-mix. It is also a known formula. We assume the formula in the Kodak patent is the final XTOL formula but we can’t know for certain if small changes might have been made to the relative proportions.

Regarding use of Phenidone in place of Dimezone-S, a general rule of thumb as a starting point is to use a mol/mol substitution.

Yes, D76 is quite close and a reasonable alternative, which is very easy to mix. I didn't use hexametaphosphate for iron impurities, but for the hard water locally. In case I wanted to dilute to 1+1, it would make a difference when using tap water to do so, avoiding precipitates. For some time, I even mixed double strength, without phenidone and ascorbic acid, which I added right before use. This was doable, but a bit of a chore, so I stopped doing it. In all these cases, the Fenton reaction wasn't an issue, because the solution would be used immediately and then discarded.

PS I'm not sure equimolar amounts of Phenidone and Dimezone-S have the same activity level, but gram for gram substitution worked ok in the end.

 

[AgX]

Fotoimpex on Fomadon Excel:

"Longevity of working solution 4 weeks. Please do not store longer, as this developer can suddenly turn over without a discolaration (similar to Xtol). It then does not develop at all, instead of a bit less."

 

[MattKing]

As part of my outreach to the contacts I have, I specifically requested permission to share the response. My practice is not to disclose emails unless I have that.
"Trade concern" could be something as stupid as there being packages out there with two bags of Part A and no Part B.
Who knows!
The Facebook announcement smacks of what happens when the last person in the public relations office before leaving for Christmas is asked to post something.
Grrr

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

As part of my outreach to the contacts I have, I specifically requested permission to share the response. My practice is not to disclose emails unless I have that.
"Trade concern" could be something as stupid as there being packages out there with two bags of Part A and no Part B.
Who knows!
The Facebook announcement smacks of what happens when the last person in the public relations office before leaving for Christmas is asked to post something.
Grrr

I mixed up a batch yesterday. I'll run a roll through it today or tomorrow...Have to take some photos first but it's hard to motivate oneself when it's pouring outside...

 

[Arcadia4]

Good experience with fomadon excel. 1L size also convenient for low volume 1 shot use. Packaging is definitely ‘in house’ i.e.basic printed paper slip in a grip seal poly bag.
Bellini eco film is also claimed to be a ‘liquid’ version of xtol. Would be interested to hear of any user experience.