Kodak XTOL trade concern announcment

[wyofilm]

I think they are very serious.
I'm concerned that public relations is now coming from Sino Promise, not the former Kodak Alaris people.

Perhaps you are right about Sino Promise, but it damn unprofessional. But if what you say is true, then that would suggest Sino Promise has greater dealings with KA than what has been made public.

 

[Kino]

I also sent an email to Kodak at the listed address, but probably will also reach out to Freestyle. Probably will get a much faster response.

 

[removed account4]

I think they are very serious.
I'm concerned that public relations is now coming from Sino Promise, not the former Kodak Alaris people.

I think that you are right, which demonstrates a lack of professionalism. They are not serious.

Hi Matt+wyofilm
I see exactly the opposite and do not sure why you are concerned. I think it is GOOD and that they seem to be on top of things. MOST people are on FB and they are spreading news fast. I remember the PR Nightmares of the bad 120Film Wrapper, and how it took what seemed like an eternity to even have KA address the issue and make an announcement about it. While I don't use Xtol it is good they are on the ball: Im also impressed seeing we are in the middle of a raging pandemic; and they probably realize that a lot of people who might be new to chemical photography are using their products for the first time...and back in the day what was it, word of mouth, you tell 1 person a good experience and 20 a bad one, now its tell no one good experience and 100 million a bad one. last thing KA needs is 100million people yapping and yelping on and on and on... and on.
Good to see the "yellow father" is waking up from his nap in front of the tv...

 

[wyofilm]

Hi Matt+wyofilm
I see exactly the opposite and do not sure why you are concerned. I think it is GOOD and that they seem to be on top of things. MOST people are on FB and they are spreading news fast. I remember the PR Nightmares of the bad 120Film Wrapper, and how it took what seemed like an eternity to even have KA address the issue and make an announcement about it. While I don't use Xtol it is good they are on the ball: Im also impressed seeing we are in the middle of a raging pandemic; and they probably realize that a lot of people who might be new to chemical photography are using their products for the first time...and back in the day what was it you tell 1 person a good experience and 20 a bad one, now its tell no one good experience and 100 million a bad one.
Good to see the "yellow father" is waking up from his nap in front of the tv...

I appreciate your optimism and do hope that you are right in that I have misread the situation. It would serve my interests and the interests of the film community. A good thing. What bothers me isn't that the press release went out on Facebook - probably a smart thing. What bothers me is the message itself. It is a mess. When I read things that lack clarity it usually means one of two things. 1. The author is trying to intentionally obfuscate. 2. The author hasn't clarity in his/her mind. Mind you this is the press release office of what is essentially a marketing firm. They are professional communicators.

So, in my mind, is it 1. or is it 2.? Believe it or not, I think the situation is worse if it is the latter case. It means KA doesn't know how to handle this 'trade concern' (an odd and oddly specific phrase in a sea of sloppy/meaningless/trite phrases). Ok, now I'm sure it is both 1. and 2.

 

[MattKing]

Perhaps you are right about Sino Promise, but it damn unprofessional. But if what you say is true, then that would suggest Sino Promise has greater dealings with KA than what has been made public.

Sino Promise bought the Kodak chemical and colour paper and photo lab support business from Kodak Alaris - the sale completed in November.
That has been made public, although they still haven't confirmed that the black and white chemicals were included (they were).
The Kodak Alaris factories in China and South America (colour chemicals) were included. Most important, the Kodak Alaris employees in that division (many/most of whom were former Kodak employees) also went.
The transition is still happening - email addresses that I have are still Kodak Alaris addresses.

 

[removed account4]

I appreciate your optimism and do hope that you are right in that I have misread the situation. It would serve my interests and the interests of the film community. A good thing. What bothers me isn't that the press release went out on Facebook - probably a smart thing. What bothers me is the message itself. It is a mess. When I read things that lack clarity it usually means one of two things. 1. The author is trying to intentionally obfuscate. 2. The author hasn't clarity in his/her mind. Mind you this is the press release office of what is essentially a marketing firm. They are professional communicators.

So, in my mind, is it 1. or is it 2.? Believe it or not, I think the situation is worse if it is the latter case. It means KA doesn't know how to handle this 'trade concern' (an odd and oddly specific phrase in a sea of sloppy/meaningless/trite phrases). Ok, now I'm sure it is both 1. and 2.

yea I can see that... but would it have really been better if they made an announcement that they received emails and concerns from a variety of sources that the developer's chemical formulation has been compromised due to shipping or packaging issues or mixing which in turn produce lackluster results? IDK i think trade concerns is equally as good and better at detailing problems the developer might yield, and it seems the announcement has done everything it was expected to do. ... its gotten people within the chemical photography world to talk about the developer, how wonderful it usually is, and showing photographs online to people who might not be knowledgeable about lot and batch and date codes, samples of good negatives and less good negatives &c. I give KA and SINOPROMISE a lot of credit for making an announcement, any announcement about a potential flawed product. Can you imagine if the announcement mentioned Fenton reactions, oxidation of ascorbateand iron sequestering agent? Probably would have been thrown in a pillory for that..

Sino Promise bought the Kodak chemical and colour paper and photo lab support business from Kodak Alaris - the sale completed in November.
That has been made public, although they still haven't confirmed that the black and white chemicals were included (they were).
The Kodak Alaris factories in China and South America (colour chemicals) were included. Most important, the Kodak Alaris employees in that division (many/most of whom were former Kodak employees) also went.
The transition is still happening - email addresses that I have are still Kodak Alaris addresses.

even more impressed they made an announcement almost immediately after purchase of the company instead of letting it cause a massive headache and 3 years of bad publicity down the road..

 

[MattKing]

The concern about PR coming from Sino Promise is simply that they would be less likely to understand the import to the end user of what they included in the cryptic December 22, 2020 Facebook post. Someone from the photo chemical division of Kodak Alaris would have been much more likely to either warn or reassure users of film developer.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Found a box of 8x10 films that I previously shot but never got around to processing them (I usually shoot backups on road trips) so I decided to develop a sheet (HP5) in stock solution (starting to season for replenishment). Added 70ml of fresh Xtol to bottle containing working stock solution, then poured back used developer, and dumped the excess. The negative looks great. Developed another 8x10 sheet of HP5 using my N time for a 1+1 dilution. It also turned out really nice, maybe just a little over developed. I'm not concerned, and will hang on to the four packages for now.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

@MattKing thanks for your help!

 

[MattKing]

You are welcome Andrew.
You may want to hold off the replenishment for a sheet or two - the working solution will season faster.

 

[removed account4]

The concern about PR coming from Sino Promise is simply that they would be less likely to understand the import to the end user of what they included in the cryptic December 22, 2020 Facebook post. Someone from the photo chemical division of Kodak Alaris would have been much more likely to either warn or reassure users of film developer.

yea I can see that concern too, but I guess we are living in the future ...

 

[wyofilm]

The concern about PR coming from Sino Promise is simply that they would be less likely to understand the import to the end user of what they included in the cryptic December 22, 2020 Facebook post. Someone from the photo chemical division of Kodak Alaris would have been much more likely to either warn or reassure users of film developer.

Matt, this makes even less sense to me. Sino Promise, unless they plan to ditch their new Photo Chem purchase, would be the ones most likely to reassure customers. They are the ones with skin in the game, not KA. I don't believe after purchasing a photo chem division Sino Promises doesn't understand the concerns end users would have with a defective product.

Really, how hard is it to write a coherent press release.
"It has come to our attention that a recent batch of Kodak X-tol developer (batch #) is yielding unexpected results. Therefore, we encourage those of you who have recently purchased X-tol with the following batch #'s to email us at () with details of your purchase. If you can verify your purchase, you will receive a coupon to redeem updated product when it becomes available. We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience."

What I wrote includes the issue, who might be effected, and the remedy. The problem with their release is that there is no statement of the problem (why? because they are obfuscating) and no remedy (why? because they haven't come up with one yet.) Their press release is BS.

 

[MattKing]

Matt, this makes even less sense to me. Sino Promise, unless they plan to ditch their new Photo Chem purchase, would be the ones most likely to reassure customers. They are the ones with skin in the game, not KA. I don't believe after purchasing a photo chem division Sino Promises doesn't understand the concerns end users would have with a defective product.

I'm not saying that the December 22nd post was intentional.
I'm saying that a couple of days before Christmas someone junior in the social media department and unfamiliar with a product line ended up being assigned a task that they shouldn't have been.

 

[wyofilm]

I'm not saying that the December 22nd post was intentional.
I'm saying that a couple of days before Christmas someone junior in the social media department and unfamiliar with a product line ended up being assigned a task that they shouldn't have been.

The real answer is that they should hire you! Now, that would get me to buy more yellow!

 

[MattKing]

The real answer is that they should hire you! Now, that would get me to buy more yellow!

Thanks, although I don't know whether I'd be a good fit for their social media department, given my aversion to most social media platforms...

 

[wyofilm]

Thanks, although I don't know whether I'd be a good fit for their social media department, given my aversion to most social media platforms...

That might be a problem ...

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I'm on Facebook in a very limited way but I have no particular liking for it.

 

[AgX]

Thanks for this. So that 4 x120 and 8 x135?

In the Xtol paper Kodak gives instructions on an Ilford kind of replenishment. I say Ilford simply because Microphen uses just such a method which is use and pour back into the 1L of stock adding increased development as the number of films developed increase.

I doubt this can be called "replenishment, as except after the first run, no fresh solution is added. This method is in effect not different from using a whole working solution repeatedly. The yield of this procedure too is limited by the yield of the complete working solution.

 

[pentaxuser]

I'm on Facebook in a very limited way but I have no particular liking for it.

These days with the ravages of old age and a propos the first part of Facebook then the section in the above quote after the word "but" certainly applies to me

pentaxuser

 

[DonW]

I have some of the affected Xtol. My negs came out thin I've emailed them. I know my local camera store won't do anything to help me except maybe replace what I bought from them with another affected bag of Xtol.

I guess it's back to PyroCat which has served me well. I thought I would try Xtol again after not using it for years. I quit using it when the first round of Xtol failures happened. Thought I would give it another chance. I guess that was a mistake lol.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I'm on Facebook in a very limited way but I have no particular liking for it.

Me too. I only use FaceBook for keeping in contact with those who only use FaceBook.

 

[pentaxuser]

Me too. I only use FaceBook for keeping in contact with those who only use FaceBook.

I'll be that only Emperor Zuck with his infinite information stream from his invention knows if wet or pre-wet is correct and other vital info such as the minimum quantity of Perceptol etc I'd join if I thought he'd tell me

pentaxuser

 

[removed account4]

im guessing the xtol would work OK if mixed with a bit of one's favorite print developer .. les mclean wrote at one point about how he liked to add a little rodinal into his xtol to give it a little something he thought it was missing. I typically add a shake of whatever print developer I have lying around when I use caffneolC which sometimes has a tendency to give thin xtolesque negatives. all may not be lost, and who knows you might like xtolxtra better than it performs flying solo...

YMMV

 

[Peter Schrager]

im guessing the xtol would work OK if mixed with a bit of one's favorite print developer .. les mclean wrote at one point about how he liked to add a little rodinal into his xtol to give it a little something he thought it was missing. I typically add a shake of whatever print developer I have lying around when I use caffneolC which sometimes has a tendency to give thin xtolesque negatives. all may not be lost, and who knows you might like xtolxtra better than it performs flying solo...

YMMV

John you are welcome to come check out several thousand negatives made with xtol...all 120 and 35.mm
For large format I brew up my own pyrocat mc

 

[removed account4]

John you are welcome to come check out several thousand negatives made with xtol...all 120 and 35.mm
For large format I brew up my own pyrocat mc

im sure they are quite nice ! but im all-set as they say. I feel badly for people who are used to their favorite developer that now has issues. BTDT I guess...

Throw away your caffenol you are wasting your time!

naa. i have too many unroasted beans in my garage ... when I run out then I'll take your advice..