Kodak XTOL trade concern announcment

Sirius Glass · Mar 6, 2021

jnantz said:
Thing is to beat the jokers at their game ...
Buy plates from j.Lane and pre packages sumatranol and box cameras from that Nanian guy. To heck with the conglomerates!

Obviously a naked self promotion pug. Some people have no boundaries.

Donald Qualls · Mar 7, 2021

The last Xtol I mixed (expired 2002, mixed in September 2020) specified that it didn't need "warm" water, but rather could be mixed at room temperature (unlikely D-76, which has to be hottish to dissolve everything promptly, though it'll all stay in solution a good bit below normal room temperature later).

I now have two bags of "trade concern" Xtol that I doubt I'll try to mix; if I don't have replacements by the time I start to use my last liter of replenisher, I'll switch to EcoPro, or if EcoPro has stock supply problems I'll try to source high purity sulfite and borax so as to make Mytol that lasts. Presuming I still can't buy Adox XT in 5L bags by that point...

m00dawg · Mar 7, 2021

Sounded like Adox XT-3 will be available, at least in a limited run, next week and I do now show 5L bags are available at FotoImpex so that's something to think about. However if you are able to find a pure Mytol, perhaps one that could work with replenishment, that would be awesome! Mytol is my fallback. I souped some negatives in HC-110 yesterday and while I liked the results well enough, it wasn't Xtol so yeah I think I'm gonna need to find some sort of solution for my beloved Xtol. I'm gunning for XT-3 at this point.

Donald Qualls · Mar 7, 2021

I've read at least a couple reports of replenished Mytol being used in commercial machine processing. The key is your base chemicals must be free from iron and copper to avoid the Fenton reaction destroying your ascorbate without warning.

The hard part is being sure that sulfite and borax you order online is actually free of iron and copper. My DI water is pure, there shouldn't be a problem with supplement grade ascorbate, and there's so little phenidone in the formula that the stuff would be grossly contaminated before it caused trouble -- but each liter contains a good bit of sulfite and borax, where a tenth of a percent or less (maybe much less) of iron will cause the end product to go off.

I can't afford to order chemicals from overseas, never mind wait an unknown number of months for customs in New Jersey to finish processing DHL loads from last fall. Freestyle is the US distributor for Adox, so that's where it'll show in this country -- but they, too, get their stuff through that same New Jersey customs bottleneck.

braxus · Mar 7, 2021

Im almost out of my first batch of Xtol I mixed up last November. Im just going to mix up the second bag and use it. No sense waiting for replacements that may never come.

Donald Qualls · Mar 7, 2021

The reports of thin negatives with near-new solution have put me off. The two bags of "trade concern" Xtol I have are not going to be put into my replenishment.

mshchem · Mar 7, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
The reports of thin negatives with near-new solution have put me off. The two bags of "trade concern" Xtol I have are not going to be put into my replenishment.

I threw mine in the trash. I've got a hoard of Tetenal XTOL, should last me for a couple years. I'm done with Kodak black and white chemistry. Adox should take advantage of this mess and pounce on this.
So sad.

m00dawg · Mar 8, 2021

mshchem said:
I threw mine in the trash. I've got a hoard of Tetenal XTOL, should last me for a couple years. I'm done with Kodak black and white chemistry. Adox should take advantage of this mess and pounce on this.
So sad.

Adox is. I believe their XT-3 dev may be available in a week, though in limited quantities. And as folks have pointed out, international shipping is a bit backed up now so it's still a bit of a race to see who might win heh. Thing is, I don't mind waiting on Kodak for XTOL. That's not what I'm angry about. I'm just rather furious they won't communicate any updates about it, even if that just means "we're still working on it and we don't know when it will be available". Give us something to acknowledge the issue. Adox, on the other hand, is quite communicative generally.

removedacct1 · Mar 8, 2021

m00dawg said:
Adox is. I believe their XT-3 dev may be available in a week, though in limited quantities. And as folks have pointed out, international shipping is a bit backed up now so it's still a bit of a race to see who might win heh. Thing is, I don't mind waiting on Kodak for XTOL. That's not what I'm angry about. I'm just rather furious they won't communicate any updates about it, even if that just means "we're still working on it and we don't know when it will be available". Give us something to acknowledge the issue. Adox, on the other hand, is quite communicative generally.

My followup emails asking for an update have been ignored, it seems. No replacement product, no new information, nothing. I'm staying with Plan B: mix my own chemistry and forget about Xtol for now.

mshchem · Mar 8, 2021

I wonder if Sino is doing anything? The smart thing to do would give everything back to Tetenal, all of it Powders and liquids. But like all massive companies they look at the costs of labor and environmental costs and decide it's got to be made in a low cost country.
If and when Kodak branded products do come back on the market, why would I take a chance? In the US Freestyle has a product that fills every spot. Adox will have a bullet proof version.
Even if something is more expensive, consider time, cost of film, and most importantly lost opportunity. Buying a product from a company like Adox makes a great deal of sense.

In the days gone by I used nothing but Kodak, papers color and black and white, every chemical. It cost more but it was a premium product.

I'm waiting for the next run of Lupex from Adox, I mentioned it would be nice to have precut 4x5 sheets, they are making up some 250 sheet boxes. What chance of any other company doing that?

m00dawg · Mar 8, 2021

mshchem said:
I'm waiting for the next run of Lupex from Adox, I mentioned it would be nice to have precut 4x5 sheets, they are making up some 250 sheet boxes. What chance of any other company doing that?

I bought their 8x10 10 sheet box to try - I'm just gonna cut it into 4x5 myself. Definitely not ideal, and far less than 250 sheets (!) but I really wanted to try it as I've never printed on such a type of paper before.

radiant · Mar 8, 2021

Why US user cannot just hop to using EcoPro? https://www.freestylephoto.biz/7477...corbic-Acid-Powder-BW-Film-Developer-(Makes-5 - pretty cheap I say. And we from the other side of the lake switch to Excel or XT-3. Problem solved.

m00dawg · Mar 8, 2021

vedostuu said:
Why US user cannot just hop to using EcoPro? https://www.freestylephoto.biz/7477...corbic-Acid-Powder-BW-Film-Developer-(Makes-5 - pretty cheap I say. And we from the other side of the lake switch to Excel or XT-3. Problem solved.

For non-replenishment I think it'd be a solid option. They don't list replenishment regimens and I already have heard this and the Foma variant may or may not have different times. None of that is a big issue really. Well, replenishment for me sort of is, but I've read (maybe in this thread even) folks do it. Otther thing is that it might not last quite as long.

Also if you pull up the datasheet, the link there mentions www.kentmereusa.com which isn't a website you'd expect. That just has me a bit nervous given I need a consistent developer over the long haul so I don't have to keep wasting film and time on testing. Some will say that means pick something like D-76 or mix my own Mytol. Both good options! But I'm not quite ready to go down that path and though in some ways mixing up my own chems means I can blame myself if I get bad results I'd rather have the consistency of a trusted brand.

Not taking anyway from Freestyle here but I would feel more comfortable with a more up to date data sheet that didn't point me to a random site from China and with a known source of where the chemicals come from.

Donald Qualls · Mar 8, 2021

I've seen reports here on Photrio of people using EcoPro with replenishment, treating it exactly like Xtol in all respects. Easy enough to find out -- try it and see. By the time you've gone through five liters in replenishment, you'll know if the activity is changing.

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 8, 2021

My replenished Xtol from the naughty batch is still working fine. I'm sure eventually I get the replacement packages... if not, no big deal. I'll just go back to pyrocat-hd.

m00dawg · Mar 8, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I've seen reports here on Photrio of people using EcoPro with replenishment, treating it exactly like Xtol in all respects. Easy enough to find out -- try it and see. By the time you've gone through five liters in replenishment, you'll know if the activity is changing.

Yep, seems like most folks do well with it. It was either here or LF Forums, but folks even just started seasoning their Xtol-R with it. Kodak has just made me nervous about not being able to find the source of chemicals. It's not really Freestyle's fault per-se but now I kinda have more of an interest in knowing where / being apprehensive about where chemicals are coming from. FS should really update that dataseet.

I hit Freestyle up on live chat to let them know about that bad link on their datasheet so hopefully they can get that updated. They were very nice as well and are going to have their purchasing department follow up to some questions I had (such as if theirs is closer to Mytol or actual Xtol).

I saw your post come in while I was typing this, Andrew, and my only thoughts there are - I don't shoot film to _maybe_ get negatives I would expect of my 4 bags of the tainted Xtol, good chance all of them might even be good. But there have been several reports of rapid falloff and thin negatives. And I'm glad Kodak addresses the initial issue for sure! The response thereafter has been really bad. But either way, I just don't want to risk my memories and expensive sheets to a chemical lottery.

NB23 · Mar 8, 2021

What about D76? I remember it had some issues when the new packaging came into effect.

Dang, with all these china Kodak issues, how do I actually know if the clearing agent is doing its job properly?

Donald Qualls · Mar 8, 2021

m00dawg said:
It was either here or LF Forums, but folks even just started seasoning their Xtol-R with it.

What I recall was Bormental asking if he could use EcoPro to replenish his running Xtol-R -- and the general advice being that, though the two are functionally identical, it wouldn't do to assume they were THAT close. As I mentioned recently (in this thread?) I've read a couple different reports of Mytol running in self-replenishment. This may be a general property of PC-Borax developers.

m00dawg · Mar 8, 2021

Ah gotcha. Yeah I think I'm gonna just chock my existing XTOL-R up as a lost cause. It's had one trade-issue bag run through it already and while I didn't have any major issues with most films, some behaved off and not there's some uncertainty. So the dream is dead for now until I can find a solution there. While FreeStyle's docs don't mention replenishment of Eco-Pro, DigitalTruth mentions it at least:

https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/ecopro_developers.php

Makes it seem plausible and validated easily enough by doing some periodic film tests.

Donald Qualls · Mar 8, 2021

Given I have about 1.8L of stock solution left in my replenisher bottles, and average only two or three rolls of B&W per month (meaning that's close to a year's supply), I'll keep running my Xtol-R as long as that lasts; if Sino Promise has coughed up replacements for my two suspect bags by then, I'll be very happy to keep using it until or unless I see issues. If they haven't, I'll take my hat off and pour out a libration in long-replenished Xtol stock, and switch to either EcoPro or Adox XT -- unless I can find a reasonably priced source of certfied iron-free sulfite and borax.

m00dawg · Mar 8, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Given I have about 1.8L of stock solution left in my replenisher bottles, and average only two or three rolls of B&W per month (meaning that's close to a year's supply), I'll keep running my Xtol-R as long as that lasts; if Sino Promise has coughed up replacements for my two suspect bags by then, I'll be very happy to keep using it until or unless I see issues. If they haven't, I'll take my hat off and pour out a libration in long-replenished Xtol stock, and switch to either EcoPro or Adox XT -- unless I can find a reasonably priced source of certfied iron-free sulfite and borax.

Haha yes this is essentially my plan only I'm ahead of you as I have run out of replenisher. I haven't done the funeral to my Xtol-R yet but it's coming.

37th Exposure · Mar 8, 2021

I just cannot imagine how a brand (Kodak) that you could trust by the name alone would contract out to a dictatorship with a reputation for low quality junk. Certainly there must be reputable chemical companies besides Tetenal. Might cost more but the Kodak name going down the toilet would cost even more I would think.

m00dawg · Mar 8, 2021

In fairness, I heard, at least down the grapevine, Sino Promise has already been providing Flexicolor chemicals for a while? Don't quite me on that. But also, my tainted bags of Xtol say "Made in Germany" and I believe the last recall was also due to the same supplier? So while I am not at all letting Kodak off the hook here, the main problem for me is not where the new stuff is going to be made, it's the lack of keeping their customers informed.

mshchem · Mar 8, 2021

37th Exposure said:
I just cannot imagine how a brand (Kodak) that you could trust by the name alone would contract out to a dictatorship with a reputation for low quality junk. Certainly there must be reputable chemical companies besides Tetenal. Might cost more but the Kodak name going down the toilet would cost even more I would think.

Yeah, Eastman Kodak has zero to do with chemistry and paper. Alaris was formed to satisfy the needs of the retirement plan of UK Kodak employees. The paper and chemistry has been for sale for sometime, Alaris hasn't been able to provide the needed revenue so now the British government is involved (no different than US bailouts of private pension plans) no one wanted things to turn out this way. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kodak Alaris maintain the still film business. Ektachrome seems to be successful.

What I've come to realize is Sino Promise and Fujifilm don't give two s*#ts about peons like me. They have a entirely different business model.

People like Ilford, Foma, Adox to name a few are in a position to provide niche products, they're not top heavy with executives. If Adox can make a couple hundred thousand more Euro a year, maybe the company car can go from a base 911 to a 911 Turbo S. .

That's what I'm talking about

Tim Stapp · Mar 8, 2021

mshchem said:
Yeah, Eastman Kodak has zero to do with chemistry and paper. Alaris was formed to satisfy the needs of the retirement plan of UK Kodak employees. The paper and chemistry has been for sale for sometime, Alaris hasn't been able to provide the needed revenue so now the British government is involved (no different than US bailouts of private pension plans) no one wanted things to turn out this way. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kodak Alaris maintain the still film business. Ektachrome seems to be successful.

What I've come to realize is Sino Promise and Fujifilm don't give two s*#ts about peons like me. They have a entirely different business model.

People like Ilford, Foma, Adox to name a few are in a position to provide niche products, they're not top heavy with executives. If Adox can make a couple hundred thousand more Euro a year, maybe the company car can go from a base 911 to a 911 Turbo S. .

That's what I'm talking about

Those three will have my business going forward.

Kodak XTOL trade concern announcment

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