Kodak XTOL trade concern announcment

[m00dawg]

I haven't, though I see it's out of stock. I wonder if it's the new stuff they're working on or something they have already had? I did notice their delivery estimate on XTOL has been updated (March 24th). Freestyle shows March 19th. So that's interesting and not something I recall seeing before. Been talking with Donald in another thread by Mytol and am now pondering going down that road though.

 

[mshchem]

Has anyone seen and tried this XTOL alternative from ADOX?

https://www.fotoimpex.com/chemistry/adox-xt-developer-to-mix-1000-ml.html

This looks good. It will be more expensive than the, before the total screw up on Alaris' last attempts to sell XTOL, but replenished, still cheap, reliable, still cheap. Quality is Economy!

 

[m00dawg]

I can't find any info about it on adox.de and I see it has a "NEW" stamp on it so hopefully that means they're preparing to release it soon!? I just spent like $270 from FotoImpex haha doh! (so much so I can maximize the shipping, particularly because to the DHL pandemic surcharge). Will definitely need some info on it though but this is promising!

 

[Peter Schrager]

This looks good. It will be more expensive than the, before the total screw up on Alaris' last attempts to sell XTOL, but replenished, still cheap, reliable, still cheap. Quality is Economy!

Not more expensive almost 2.5x more expensive than xtol....

 

[mshchem]

Ecopro is Freestyle (F&S Distribution) version, made in USA. Colleges and High schools use it, procurement departments read "equivalent to XTOL" Freestyle gets the order. I'm not going to be using China made chemistry, so it's either Adox, Ilford, or Ecopro.
And since the demise of the Real Kodak tested photograde individual chemicals, it's hard to find anything here in the US that doesn't come from China. I have at least 15 packages of Tetenal made XTOL. So I'm good for a while.
I would expect Adox will be competitive in the US through normal distribution channels. 5 L or 4L packages in time. And there's the dust capture bonus.

 

[NB23]

Sino promise

 

[urnem57]

I suppose this is just what happens to corporations. Way back when, The North Face was a company started by UCB Engineering Students who liked to go to the Sierras. They couldn’t find much lightweight quality gear. At that time, there was only expedition-grade (I.E. very expensive) or cheap surplus crap available. So they started making their own gear and began selling it to their friends. It was made in The U.S. and all of it came with a no-questions-asked lifetime warranty. If a bear chewed off the arm on your jacket, they would sew a new one on and send it back. As the thing grew they kept that warranty. They folded up shop at some point. I see that the name and logo were sold off to some holding company. It’s just an empty brand name selling crap made in China now. I think we all know where this story is going. I have to hand it to companies like Ilford, (owned by Jane Herman’s Group now), Adox, Tetenal, Rollei, and a few of the others still standing. They produce quality products that work. They just can’t seem to get them here because of the supply chain problems. You can thank the business geniuses who came up with the just-in-time-supply chain. Distributors don’t stock inventory as they once did. Unforseen circumstances are not accounted for. Remember the lack of PPE at the beginning of this pandemic? There were no cookies in the cookie jar. Kind of like now. Go try and find a bottle of Rodinal in The LA area. Good luck.

 

[MattKing]

I have to hand it to companies like Ilford, (owned by Jane Herman’s Group now),

Actually, Ilford is defunct. The black and white photographic materials come from Harman Technolology Ltd., who own a license to use the Ilford brand, and are themselves owned by a venture capital corporation named Pemberstone Ventures Ltd.

 

[urnem57]

I did not know this. The products are not made in The Ilford plants in The UK?

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Rollei is a couple of drunkards in a basement with a printer. They'll plaster that logo on whatever tier-3 emulsion they'll find at a nearby estate sale.

I won't use "Rollei" products. Quality control is lacking in my experience. I'd have no issue with with using a Rollei camera (the real company) if the opportunity arose.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Not more expensive almost 2.5x more expensive than xtol....

I would expect Adox will be competitive in the US through normal distribution channels. 5 L or 4L packages in time. And there's the dust capture bonus.

Another thread had a link to the 5L package of the Adox XT-III -- it's only about 50% increase over the last price I paid for Xtol (both of which bags are "trade concern" affected). Given labor in Europe is far more expensive than in China, that's to be expected, not to mention the cost of European environmental and workplace safety compliance vs. the Chinese "do what you like" situation. The 1L size is actually an added value -- there may be some who don't want to or can't store 5L of stock solution, and being able to buy in smaller bags rather than potentially not be able to use it, or wasting a significant fraction due to expiration after mixing. Even running replenishment, I can see some good sense in only needing two extra bottles over the basic three or four (one for the replenisher, a second to mix new replenisher before the first runs out at an inconvenient time), vs. me needing *six* extra bottles to mix 5L of replenisher before the old is completely used up.

For low volume users, it might easily be worth the additional cost to get the smaller package, like buying milk by the quart instead of by the gallon if you only put it on cereal or in coffee and live alone.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Use a filter funnel. Ask me how I know.

Be careful with this.
You can end up with developer that lacks the requisite amount of whatever it is that didn't dissolve properly.
And with respect to Sirius' comment, mixing the developer with warmed water - the instructions tell you the acceptable range - does help it dissolve more quickly, but my sense (based on incomplete info) is that the faulty X-Tol may still not dissolve properly, even with warmed water.

I did not notice any white particles when I first mixed up a batch of XTOL (later I learned this lot number was on the recall list). Not saying there were no white particles, but if there were, I did not notice. First roll (T-Max 400) developed normally (one shot; discarded after use). A week later, when setting up to develop another roll from the same batch of XTOL, I noticed some suspended white particles. I filtered out the white particles with a coffee filter - and that roll, Fuji Acros II - came out thin. That experience was discussed <here>.

No idea if removing the white particles contributed to the thin negatives, or not. I will try a clip test before using any more of this batch of XTOL. If I can get another successful development from this batch, it might suggest removing the particles was at least part of the problem?

Still waiting for replacment XTOL from Sino Promise, since early January.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I did not notice any white particles when I first mixed up a batch of XTOL (later I learned this lot number was on the recall list). Not saying there were no white particles, but if there were, I did not notice. First roll (T-Max 400) developed normally (one shot; discarded after use). A week later, when setting up to develop another roll from the same batch of XTOL, I noticed some suspended white particles. I filtered out the white particles with a coffee filter - and that roll, Fuji Acros II - came out thin. That experience was discussed <here>.

No idea if removing the white particles contributed to the thin negatives, or not. I will try a clip test before using any more of this batch of XTOL. If I can get another successful development from this batch, it might suggest removing the particles was at least part of the problem?

Still waiting for replacment XTOL from Sino Promise, since early January.

Some say never filter Xtol. The floaties always went away for me once in storage bottles. I never use film developers right after mixing. I usually wait 24 hours for everything to stabilise. Just a habit I got into from mixing from scratch.

 

[mshchem]

I did not know this. The products are not made in The Ilford plants in The UK?

Yes, Ilford brand analog films and papers are made by the same employees in the same plant.
Chemistry, I believe, is made in Germany by the same folks that have made these products for many years, very high quality.

 

[mshchem]

If XTOL is to be made in China, prepare for a wait. The entire global shipping system is tied up with ships waiting for weeks to unload, containers aren't available in Asia. Big mess. FedEx and DHL are the only way to get things moved fast, and that's by dedicated air freighters, not very often catching a ride in a passenger plane.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I'm thinking about ceasing the use of XTOL for the time being as my current batch seems to have reduced in activity, now that I have started replenishment from the suspect "trade concern" stock.

 

[urnem57]

I won't use "Rollei" products. Quality control is lacking in my experience. I'd have no issue with with using a Rollei camera (the real company) if the opportunity arose.

This can be true. I counted the sheets of film I got in a box of 4x5 RPX 25 and there were only 20 sheets. 5 were missing.

 

[MattKing]

I did not know this. The products are not made in The Ilford plants in The UK?

When Ilford went bankrupt, some of the employees formed Harman Technology and used it to purchase the license to use the Ilford name and some of the other black and white related assets from the bankruptcy trustee. That included a lease of what you describe as the Ilford plants. They still have that lease.
The colour part of Ilford in Switzerland (including Cibachrome/Ilfochrome) was formed out of the rest of what remained of the old, bankrupt Ilford. That entity subsequently also went bankruptcy a few years ago, and as a result the only thing "legal" that remains with Ilford in its name is that license.
Harman Technology also purchased Kentmere, but were subsequently forced to close down the Kentmere manufacturing plant, due to its age and condition, and some related environmental concerns.
Harman Technology does a really good job with what they do. They have had their challenges as well. When their US distributor suddenly went into bankruptcy a couple of years ago, I expect that threatened their existence, because their largest market is the US, and having a distributor go bankrupt usually leaves a manufacturer with a whole bunch of uncollectable receivables.
I post all this not because I don't support and Harman Technology and recommend its products, but instead to point out that there are no players in this industry who don't have serious challenges. Every single player is undergoing change of some sort, and some of the changes don't go well.
Like Kodak Alaris, Harman Technology briefly lost their chemical manufacturer when Tetenal went bankrupt. The new Tetenal seems to have restored Harman's source of supply of those chemicals, so at least for now it looks like Harman made the best choice when they elected to wait out that disruption. Kodak Alaris elected to move production away from the bankrupt Tetenal and move it to US sources. They also elected to revise packaging. Those decisions have not gone well.

 

[urnem57]

Buy more material didn’t know this about not filtering Xtol through a funnel. The odd thing is, I never did this at all. I didn’t filter the bad batches that produced thin negatives. Come to think of it, I only filtered The Eco Pro and The Legacy Pro because they were new to me and I had never seen so much undissolved material in my developer before. It didn’t seem to affect the negs at all. Both Eco Pro & Legacy Pro have consistently produced excellent results for me.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Buy more material didn’t know this about not filtering Xtol through a funnel. The odd thing is, I never did this at all. I didn’t filter the bad batches that produced thin negatives. Come to think of it, I only filtered The Eco Pro and The Legacy Pro because they were new to me and I had never seen so much undissolved material in my developer before. It didn’t seem to affect the negs at all. Both Eco Pro & Legacy Pro have consistently produced excellent results for me.

It the water is not warm enough when Solution A is mixed, you will have hard time getting everything into solution. It the pieces are still there when Solution B is mixed, the particles become very hard to get into solution. Just follow the instructions on the packages, using the highest temperatures in the range. Yes, I just said RTFM. You should need to filter and if you filter the developer will be noticeably weaker.

 

[mshchem]

When Ilford went bankrupt, some of the employees formed Harman Technology and used it to purchase the license to use the Ilford name and some of the other black and white related assets from the bankruptcy trustee. That included a lease of what you describe as the Ilford plants. They still have that lease.
The colour part of Ilford in Switzerland (including Cibachrome/Ilfochrome) was formed out of the rest of what remained of the old, bankrupt Ilford. That entity subsequently also went bankruptcy a few years ago, and as a result the only thing "legal" that remains with Ilford in its name is that license.
Harman Technology also purchased Kentmere, but were subsequently forced to close down the Kentmere manufacturing plant, due to its age and condition, and some related environmental concerns.
Harman Technology does a really good job with what they do. They have had their challenges as well. When their US distributor suddenly went into bankruptcy a couple of years ago, I expect that threatened their existence, because their largest market is the US, and having a distributor go bankrupt usually leaves a manufacturer with a whole bunch of uncollectable receivables.
I post all this not because I don't support and Harman Technology and recommend its products, but instead to point out that there are no players in this industry who don't have serious challenges. Every single player is undergoing change of some sort, and some of the changes don't go well.
Like Kodak Alaris, Harman Technology briefly lost their chemical manufacturer when Tetenal went bankrupt. The new Tetenal seems to have restored Harman's source of supply of those chemicals, so at least for now it looks like Harman made the best choice when they elected to wait out that disruption. Kodak Alaris elected to move production away from the bankrupt Tetenal and move it to US sources. They also elected to revise packaging. Those decisions have not gone well.

One note, nothing to do with the topic. The Japanese company that bought the last of the Ilford Swiss works going after the Ilford moniker for ink jet media, sells a genuine Platinum printing kit, (or it appears on the web last I looked). It's interesting that the Ilford company was willing to sell the AgX business to the UK management. I suspect they thought ink would be the big winner.
I think Harman under the current owners is in a pretty good place. Adox could be a winner, as I suspect that capital is already in the owner's hand. Adox is right sized to make chemistry, and confection paper from anyone, as well as manufacture their own products.
From what I've seen Adox has multi layer plastic/aluminum packaging for chemistry. Appears to be the best out there. I remember buying Kodak Ektacolor Professional, fiber base color negative paper in the early 70s in what must have been 5 layers of plastic, aluminum and paper. Those bags were sealed air tight.

 

[mshchem]

It the water is not warm enough when Solution A is mixed, you will have hard time getting everything into solution. It the pieces are still there when Solution B is mixed, the particles become very hard to get into solution. Just follow the instructions on the packages, using the highest temperatures in the range. Yes, I just said RTFM. You should need to filter and if you filter the developer will be noticeably weaker.

Yep, follow the directions. I have a variable speed lighting mixer, with a SS propeller. Attaches to a ring stand. Best $150.00 I ever spent. You don't need it but sure is fun. Just don't whip any air into it.

 

[mshchem]

Rollei is a couple of drunkards in a basement with a printer. They'll plaster that logo on whatever tier-3 emulsion they'll find at a nearby estate sale.

That's hilarious. If they are German drunkards I would think they are drinking a nice smooth beer.

 

[urnem57]

I did follow the instructions on the bags. It just seemed like a bag or two was way chunkier than the other. The chunks were crystallized and difficult to mash up with the stirrer that I have. But as mentioned the developers worked well.

 

[removed account4]

Thing is to beat the jokers at their game ...
Buy plates from j.Lane and pre packages sumatranol and box cameras from that Nanian guy. To heck with the conglomerates!