Kodak XTOL trade concern announcment

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Peter Schrager

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Thank you henning...I'm a totally relaxed xtol user
As a matter of fact I'm so relaxed I tried mixing up my own instant mytol for virtually the same results as xtol!
INSTANT MYTOL
750ml water @125 degrees
60g sodium sulfite
11.5g ascorbic acid
0.15 g phenidine dissolved in 50ml grain alcohol
13.4ml TEA
water to 1L
This is easy as pie...use the same as xtol!
 

Donald Qualls

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Of course, with that formula there is the issue working with TEA. Not to mention this is one-shot, mixed to working strength (equivalent to Xtol 1+1?), and isn't amenable to long term storage and replenishment. Damn Fenton, anyway!
 

removedacct1

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Well, here we are at February 17th and nothing in my mailbox from Kodak. From the email I received from "ProPaperChem": "expect the replacement product to be sent to you by mid-February". I suppose that could be interpreted to mean it will SHIP by mid-February, and so I should allow for a few days transit.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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Well, here we are at February 17th and nothing in my mailbox from Kodak. From the email I received from "ProPaperChem": "expect the replacement product to be sent to you by mid-February". I suppose that could be interpreted to mean it will SHIP by mid-February, and so I should allow for a few days transit.

I'm expecting it to take months from the day it is shipped until it arrives at my address. Hopefully not.
 

mshchem

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Hello Adrian,



completely agreed. Sino Promise Holdings now owns the chemical plant in China in which the colour chemistry is produced. They can produce at lower costs there because of lower wages, less protection and rights for the workers, less environmental protection (all compared to USA, Europe, Japan etc.). And they have the booming Asian markets in "near distance". They would not have bought the assets from Kodak Alaris if they would not have the plan to continue that business.



Well that is fortunately completely wrong. Even if they would stop production of the colour chemicals, it would have no negative effect on the film revival. The film revival would simply continue at the same speed. Because we don't have any bottleneck or lack in colour chemical production. As producers we have
1. Fuji Hunt.They are running at least four factories worldwide (in the USA, Belgium, Singapore, Japan). So they can produce locally in the markets (shorter transportation distances) and at highest worker protection and environmental standards.
2. Tetenal (Germany).
3. Bellini (Italy)
4. Chugai (Japan)
5. CPAC Asia Imaging (afaik chemistry production is in China, but I am not 100% sure).
6. I know of two other photo chemistry producers who could enter the market if it would be needed.

Those of you in USA, who want to support local production and American workers, and want chemistry produced at highest environmental standards, have this option by using Fuji Hunt (because they are producing for the American markets in the US).
Those of us Europeans who have similar priorities have this option by using Fuji Hunt (produced in Belgium for the European markets), Tetenal (Germany) or Bellini (Italy).
If you are located in Asian countries or in Japan, you have this option by using Fuji Hunt or Chugai.



I have close contacts to several professional labs. And I am talking of long-established (up to 70 years) professional labs here, with several employees, who are offering
- C41, E6 and BW film processing
- often done in dip-and-dunk processing machines
- real photo paper, silver-halide / RA-4 prints
- scans in several options up to high-res scans
- large format prints, including RA-4.
So these guys are extremely experienced, and have also been working a lot for professional photographers and big companies.
Some of them have been extremely loyal Kodak customers for decades. These have all switched to Fuji Hunt chemistry now. Because of
- better quality
- lower costs.
They have also switched to Fujifilm RA-4 papers, because the supply of Kodak papers has become very unreliable.

Concerning the Kodak BW chemistry I am very relaxed. Because I know some replacements by an established photo chemistry manufacturer are in the works. I have also already done some beta-testing of it, and the results have even been better in some parameters compared to the original Kodak chemistry.

Best regards,
Henning
This sounds right to me. I've been using the Sino Promise C41 and RA4 for several years, I'm a decidedly non-professional, so can't speak to the commercial market. Based on my experience with the color chemistry, I have little doubt that Sino Promise will deliver, eventually.
Right now I'm sitting on a huge amount of Fuji Hunt E6 chemistry I bought from Unique photo in New Jersey. It's intended for the big operators, I bought all the starters so I'm ready for anything. I do this in part to not give up on home processing, I enjoy processing reversal film, instant gratification. :smile:
 

Peter Schrager

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Of course, with that formula there is the issue working with TEA. Not to mention this is one-shot, mixed to working strength (equivalent to Xtol 1+1?), and isn't amenable to long term storage and replenishment. Damn Fenton, anyway!
Donald we will see if it is one shot...no problem working with TEA...is there something I should be aware of??
 

Donald Qualls

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The point of Instant Mytol is that original Mytol generally can't be depended on for storage because of the Fenton reaction -- presence of iron or copper, not just in the water but as impurity in the chemicals used (in the sodium sulfite or borax, mainly) will, without warning or color change, kill the ascorbate and result in negatives that are barely detectable as "not clear film". This actually was the cause of Xtol Sudden Death Syndrome a good while ago, until Kodak added a sequestrant to the mixture (which substance is hard to source and expensive, or so I've read).

Some have reported good life with Mytol when using high purity chemical feedstocks -- to the point of running replenishment in commercial service -- but high purity sulfite and borax, certified free of iron and copper, is much more costly and has much larger minimum orders than the common stuff we'd use for making our own D-76, D-72, D-23, Parodinal, etc. End result is that the creator(s) of Mytol now recommend using Instant Mytol, mixed at time of use and used one-shot, and the most recent formula I've seen (may or may not be the one posted above, I haven't double checked) was for mixing directly to 1+1 equivalent working solution strength to aid in not storing Mytol.
 

Peter Schrager

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Donald thank you; I'm quite aware of the Fenton reaction. let's wait and see if my last bottle I mixed up will work properly.
regardless it's quite cheap to mix up until my Xtol comes back online. Patience everyone!!! better if they fix it for once and for all and as Henning mentioned above there will be some new developments coming out from other makers....we do have choices...
 

Donald Qualls

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We always have choices. As long as I can buy film or plates and some basic chemicals (beer or instant coffee and washing soda, aka soda ash for swimming pools, chlorine remover for fixer), I can keep this up. And if film is gone, there's still collodion. But oil painters didn't have to go back to grinding their own pigments when dry plates came out (though "water soluble oils" have replace pigment with dye in many of the colors, at least you can still buy "traditional oils" at a significant premium). Environmental and workplace safety concerns are more likely to sink the last bastion of film photography than lack of demand, I think.

Or maybe it'll be fine, and there will still be at least black and white films available long after I'm gone...
 

bonk

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Does anyone know what the problem with these batches are? Did anyone receive a reply from Kodak? I own a lot of bags from these dates and it seems (for me) that these batches do not fully dissolve I stirred part A for 40 minutes now, still a lot of white particles undissolved.
 

toyoboyo

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Has anyone received news or updates about the replacement batch that is supposed to come out?
 

m00dawg

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Nope. I bug them on IG every few days. The responded once and said to send another e-mail (so I did, no reply to that one either). I also tweet them every-day. I even started reaching out to YouTube influencers to see if maybe they can bug Andy Church to try and get us at least SOMETHING. Not a peep I'm afraid.
 

warden

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Nope. I bug them on IG every few days. The responded once and said to send another e-mail (so I did, no reply to that one either). I also tweet them every-day. I even started reaching out to YouTube influencers to see if maybe they can bug Andy Church to try and get us at least SOMETHING. Not a peep I'm afraid.
You're seriously contacting them every day? And on multiple platforms?
 

removedacct1

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Has anyone received news or updates about the replacement batch that is supposed to come out?

I was told I'd be sent new product "by mid February". I've received nothing, and all of my followup emails have been met with a stony silence.
 

m00dawg

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You're seriously contacting them every day? And on multiple platforms?

Heh yeah. Not sure what else to do. I just need to know when, even if it's a wild estimate. If it's going to be 6 months, I can manage, but then I at least know I need to have an alternative (and to use out my replenished solution instead of having it sit there aging) and it's worth spending time doing film tests and things. But if it was a week or two, I can probably wait. It's the lack of information, and lack of care of Kodak's customers, that's honestly pretty upsetting. I just don't know of any other way to get their attention (though of note, it hasn't worked so far).
 

Kino

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Despite my hopeful #179 post, I have now given up on them replacing the XTOL. At the very least, they could have sent out "we're working on it" emails or posted progress bulletins on some website, which would have been disappointing, but would have shown they were aware that this was severely impacting their reputation World Wide.

It is one thing to have unavoidable delays, yet another to clam-up and avoid responding.

Looks like Adox will take their business, and deservedly so.

I am also extremely disappointed in Freestyle, from whom I bought the XTOL. They did not respond at all to my email.

Shame on you Freestyle.
 
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removedacct1

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Heh yeah. Not sure what else to do. I just need to know when, even if it's a wild estimate. If it's going to be 6 months, I can manage, but then I at least know I need to have an alternative (and to use out my replenished solution instead of having it sit there aging) and it's worth spending time doing film tests and things. But if it was a week or two, I can probably wait. It's the lack of information, and lack of care of Kodak's customers, that's honestly pretty upsetting. I just don't know of any other way to get their attention (though of note, it hasn't worked so far).

I decided on December 31, 2020 (the day I got email from ProPaperChem@kodakalaris.com saying they'd ship new product by mid-February) that I was going to go to Plan B immediately, as I had no intention of relying on K/A to live up to their "promise". And so, I bought a bunch of the chemical components for making D-76, FX-37 (for T-grain films) and ID-78 (paper developer) and have been mixing my own ever since. I am also using PMK for some of my work. At this point, I don't miss Xtol, so it kinda doesn't matter if I ever receive new product from K/A or not.
 

m00dawg

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I think it'd be one thing if it was just Sino Promise, since they bought the Kodak chemical and paper division (I think?) but the recall is on Kodak Alaris' website and I feel there's a least ownness to say SOMETHING. It's not hard and it doesn't have to be full of info. They just have to acknowledge our issues. I just fail to see how they can be so bad at this. Literally just updating the product bulletin page would be enough.
 

urnem57

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It’s a sad situation. A once great pillar of the photo industry can’t produce their own chemicals correctly. They could at least put out some PR story to acknowledge that they would honor their (Sino) promise. The silence is a very weak response.
 

Donald Qualls

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I agree. It's starting to look like I need to work on pricing high-purity, iron-free sodium sulfite and borax to make Mytol that lasts.
 

Donald Qualls

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They say nothing about the grade of their chemicals, at least that I found in a quick search. I have sodium sulfite on hand, and laundry borax (which work fine for D-76 and such) -- the problem with Mytol is that the level of iron impurity in the sulfite and/or borax, even usual photographic grade, is enough to bring on the Fenton reaction. Apparently one needs reagent grade, specifically iron-free (and copper-free, but copper is a less common impurity for these species), or a moderately hard to find and quite expensive sequestrant, in order to make the stuff last long enough to run replenishment like I've been doing with my Xtol for the past six months.
 
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