Kodak Price Increase and Hiring Spree 2023: What Do You Want Kodak to Focus on Moving Forward?

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Sirius Glass

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The key to digital is the camera. I always thought of Kodak cameras as being second best to Japanese and German. Sony, a tech firm, understood that they didn't know cameras. Of course, being Japanese, they were in a better position to buy a great Japanese camera company. But I think Kodak just was too self-centered to look to others and maybe felt it was beneath them to buy a camera company. They were used to being in control and didn't see other film makers as real competition. Many times people get stuck in the past doing what they do best. It;s really hard to let go and try something different. How many people give up their career field in midlife to try something different?

Kodak at one time owned Graflex and Graphic and as a result of the loss of a court case, Kodak was considered a monopoly, stripped of those two companies, prohibited from selling film with processing in the US. That decision still holds and Kodak cannot by or take over a camera company. This has been discussed over the years on APUG and Photrio and is well known by photographers in the US and elsewhere in the world.
 

koraks

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You're basically agreeing with me. Whether due to inertia or stockholders or personal prejudices, they couldn't make the jump successfully.
I don't think so, given your "too proud" comment.
Also, if all you said was that they somehow didn't make it, well, that's kind of tautological, isn't it. Anyway, I just wanted to point out it's far more complex than people often make it out to be, and in doing so they do little justice to the people involved.
 

MattKing

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Kodak made and sold cameras to help increase profits from selling film and photofinishing supplies and processing. That made sense when it made sense. When it stopped serving as support for the profits that came from film and processing, they stopped making and selling cameras.
When they stopped making big profits from selling film and photofinishing supplies and processing, they started trying to replace those high profit sources with other high profit sources. Digital cameras were never going to serve that role.
 

Anon Ymous

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They were spun off, because the profit margins they were returning were lower than the shareholders required.
And many of them are gone now - e.g. Eastman Kodak stores, microfilm, X-ray film, etc., etc.

What about Eastman Chemicals? They're doing fine, don't they? As for the "profit margins the shareholders required", greed and maximum short term profit come to mind. Not exactly a viable strategy. Fuji also depended a lot on film sales, but perhaps they made sure they have other healthy sectors that would keep them alive. Yes, the switch to digital was some sort of cataclysmic event, but they probably could have done better...
 

koraks

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Fuji has done virtually the opposite of Kodak's corporate striptease: they've bought dozens of companies they perceived as strategically relevant and integrated them into the group. Kodak's development has been a more typical Western one where the rationale is to determine if splitting up the business might create larger overall shareholder value vs keeping it together.

Making normative statements about this is very challenging; while the general public may be appalled by the demise of well known brands, keep in mind that economic, societal and other interests don't necessarily align with continued existence of the brand/core company. Sometimes, subsidiaries that are split off from a group do really perform better that way. On the other hand, it's impossible to predict the future, and as such there's always inherent doubt about decisions about splitting up a company and possibly sacrificing parts of it in the process.

In any case, a massive disinvestment from silver based photography has obviously been a sound decision. While it's tragic for us and our hobby/passion, from an economic and societal viewpoint the logic of locking capital into an essentially dying industry has vanished decades ago. Whether one chooses to strip down the business and let it peter out (Kodak) or try and move to other, more relevant fields (Fuji), the net result from our perspective and arguably from many other perspectives as well is pretty much the same. You either end up with no film from a nonexistent company (Kodak), or from no film from a company that has moved to greener fields (Fuji).

Long story short, we can hang on to a brand name for sentimental reasons, but it's not going to change anything about the fact the world has moved on. Make the most of it while it lasts; it's nice we can still shoot Portra and Ektar.
 
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Kodak at one time owned Graflex and Graphic and as a result of the loss of a court case, Kodak was considered a monopoly, stripped of those two companies, prohibited from selling film with processing in the US. That decision still holds and Kodak cannot by or take over a camera company. This has been discussed over the years on APUG and Photrio and is well known by photographers in the US and elsewhere in the world.

What does manufacturing or owning a digital camera company have to do with processing film. You conflated the two and try to prove your point by claiming it was discussed here in Photrio. Lots of things said here are bogus and your statement isn't clear in any case. It's contradictory. Please provide more details.

In any case, that wouldn't necessarily apply to buying a firm to make digital cameras? In film, yes, they were considered a monopoly by the courts so owning film camera manufacturers may be an issue although they were making their own film cameras anyway. How do you explain that in light of the court decision?

But it wouldn't have been the same with digital cameras? If they bought Minolta to just produce digital cameras, on what monopoly grounds would the government object?
 
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Kodak made and sold cameras to help increase profits from selling film and photofinishing supplies and processing. That made sense when it made sense. When it stopped serving as support for the profits that came from film and processing, they stopped making and selling cameras.
When they stopped making big profits from selling film and photofinishing supplies and processing, they started trying to replace those high profit sources with other high profit sources. Digital cameras were never going to serve that role.

Making huge profits because you own so much of the market makes one sloppy, less sharp. You take things for granted. You lose your edge. Then when the stars finally misalign, you can't adjust. Looking at firms like Apple and I see similar possibilities. Hungry but dead people like Jobs and Kodak's Eastman are gone and executives today only look at the next quarter. What are you doing new today? Staying stuck can become a death trap.
 

soysos

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I always considered Ektachrome, rather than Kodachome, blue. Fortunately, the modern Ektachome just isn’t the same.

I’m not talking about the blue cast, like ektachrome has. I’m talking about how blues just pop on Kodachrome. Old Hollywood exploited the hell out of it too. Modern film stocks just don’t have the same affect.
 

Sirius Glass

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What does manufacturing or owning a digital camera company have to do with processing film. You conflated the two and try to prove your point by claiming it was discussed here in Photrio. Lots of things said here are bogus and your statement isn't clear in any case. It's contradictory. Please provide more details.

In any case, that wouldn't necessarily apply to buying a firm to make digital cameras? In film, yes, they were considered a monopoly by the courts so owning film camera manufacturers may be an issue although they were making their own film cameras anyway. How do you explain that in light of the court decision?

But it wouldn't have been the same with digital cameras? If they bought Minolta to just produce digital cameras, on what monopoly grounds would the government object?

Look it up yourself. Kodak was barred from owning cameras companies and doing other things. The court orders still stand. PERIOD. What is so hard to understand about that?
 

Hubigpielover

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God I miss drinkin'. I don't miss hangovers 😁

Short glass, a couple ice cubes, 2 shots Jack Daniel's, a couple shots of ice cold Pepsi-Cola and a squeeze of a small wedge of lime.

I sure didn't miss the hangover this morning. It was awful. You should try the Jack Daniel Triple Mash. It is really good.
 

Agulliver

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Kodak produced some good digital cameras for amateur use, but were too late into that market to really exploit it. Pentax, Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Samsung and probably others were already established. Kodak were not taken seriously enough for the pro market, though at one time their CCD sensors were fantastic.

They tried concentrating on selling Kodak branded printers and ink, but people stopped printing photos. Just two of Kodak's mistakes which are easy to see in hindsight, but less so at the time.

I've had precisely one hangover in my life....came after drinking enough to kill three average men in one night. I've calmed down a lot since then.
 

Radost

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Kodak produced some good digital cameras for amateur use, but were too late into that market to really exploit it. Pentax, Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Samsung and probably others were already established. Kodak were not taken seriously enough for the pro market, though at one time their CCD sensors were fantastic.

They tried concentrating on selling Kodak branded printers and ink, but people stopped printing photos. Just two of Kodak's mistakes which are easy to see in hindsight, but less so at the time.

I've had precisely one hangover in my life....came after drinking enough to kill three average men in one night. I've calmed down a lot since then.

As far as I know Kodak mismanaged their patents. Everybody else made a fortune taking advantage of Kodak’s R&D.
 
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Look it up yourself. Kodak was barred from owning cameras companies and doing other things. The court orders still stand. PERIOD. What is so hard to understand about that?

You should look it up and provide a link. I can;t find it. You made the claim. In any case, you didn't say that in your first post. You only referred to film cameras and film. If they made a deal with Minolta to produce Kodak/Minolta Digital Cameras, I don't think monopoly would apply. Especially because they were selling their patented digital sensors to other companies who made cameras.
 
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Kodak produced some good digital cameras for amateur use, but were too late into that market to really exploit it. Pentax, Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Samsung and probably others were already established. Kodak were not taken seriously enough for the pro market, though at one time their CCD sensors were fantastic.

They tried concentrating on selling Kodak branded printers and ink, but people stopped printing photos. Just two of Kodak's mistakes which are easy to see in hindsight, but less so at the time.

I've had precisely one hangover in my life....came after drinking enough to kill three average men in one night. I've calmed down a lot since then.

Sony did it right. They bought a top tier camera company - Minolta. Then they used German Zeiss to make all their optics which is emblazoned on every lens . Who would buy a Sony camera otherwise? Maybe a radio. But not a camera. That's what Kodak should have done but they were too proud.
 

Sirius Glass

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You should look it up and provide a link. I can;t find it. You made the claim. In any case, you didn't say that in your first post. You only referred to film cameras and film. If they made a deal with Minolta to produce Kodak/Minolta Digital Cameras, I don't think monopoly would apply. Especially because they were selling their patented digital sensors to other companies who made cameras.

It is well know. You need to read up on photographic history, it will be an eye opener.
 

redbandit

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they raised prices the other year, in order to in their words

1. create enough stability in the market via "too expensive to buy" to allow market stabilization

2. generate money for the company MAKING the film would have the cash to build an extra 1 or 2 coating lines..

coating lines that havent been built
 

MattKing

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All the Kodak photographically related anti-trust litigation has long been superseded - in many cases through consent Court orders.
And there is so little potential profit in the mid to high end digital camera business, there is no way that Kodak would have looked to that to replace their income streams.
Kodak cameras haven't been critical to Kodak's business for almost 100 years.
 

Kino

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With all the divestitures of Eastman Kodak over the last few decades, they could probably make a case to overturn the Sherman Anti-trust decree(s) imposed on them over the last century (and there were many).

On May 20, 1993, Kodak filed a motion to modify or terminate antitrust decrees entered in 1921 and 1954. They lost. Here's the Brief that appealed a lower court's granting to lift the decrees: https://www.justice.gov/atr/case-do...ted-states-america-termination-consent-decree

Just as the Paramount Decree which forbid motion picture studios from owning theater chains was overturned in August of 2020, Kodak could probably bring back film processing, camera production and other products as long as they didn't try to squeeze-out competition by refusing to sell proprietary technology vital to repairs and maintenance.

However, with their current financial standing and with their continuing problems to even furnish enough film to satisfy market demand, I don't see it happening.
 

MattKing

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Kino

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Kino

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they raised prices the other year, in order to in their words

1. create enough stability in the market via "too expensive to buy" to allow market stabilization

2. generate money for the company MAKING the film would have the cash to build an extra 1 or 2 coating lines..

coating lines that havent been built

In my opinion, building a new color coating line like the one Kodak has at the moment would be the equivalent to a new "moon shot" for the US Government.

If they invest those profits back into the current coating system, to keep it maintained, train new operators and insure their confectioning facilities remain viable, then they have a chance to keep viable.

I would hate to see them wind-up like Efke; a broken coating machine killed their business because there was no way to recoup the huge investment required to rebuild the line.
 

brbo

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Nobody* is talking about building a new coating line at Kodak.



* except one user here that incorrectly remembered what was said by Kodak as a reason behind one of the price increases
 

Kino

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Nobody* is talking about building a new coating line at Kodak.



* except one user here that incorrectly remembered what was said by Kodak as a reason behind one of the price increases

What is the point of this? Someone DID post this and I responded. Please don't gatekeep this thread. We have moderators and you are not one.

And if someone would like to point out that this is not a "friendly" response, please let me know how dismissive posts like the one above are friendly.
 

redbandit

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Nobody* is talking about building a new coating line at Kodak.



* except one user here that incorrectly remembered what was said by Kodak as a reason behind one of the price increases

that IS what kodak press release declared that year.. and we have yet to see any increase in film production capacity as a result.
 
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