Kodak Gold 200 & Adox C41 kit - help with troubleshooting heavy colour casts

[albireo]

Just another note to add that I've further refined my development workflow with the ADOX C41 kit by controlling temperature even earlier, at the pre-soak stage.

I'm now doing a longer pre-soak, using 1L of water kept in the sous vide bath running at 39 Celsius. Sampling the temperature of the pre-soak water within the Paterson tank, I stop pre-soaking once the water has reached 38 Celsius. In my room this takes 12 minutes at the moment. I do this by inserting a thin, long analogue thermometer all the way down the central shaft of the Paterson tank.

So to summarise:

• Reel, film and tank are at exactly 38C even before pouring in the developer;
• The developer is sitting in the sous vide controlled bath at 39C, is then poured in the tank, becomes slightly cooler as I pour it in, which means it ends up staying at 38C during the 3'15'' of development;
• No water rinse, once development ends I pour the developer out and pour the blix in, once again at exactly 38 degrees.
• Dev starts being poured out at the 3'00'' mark, blix starts going in at the 3'15''mark

With the above, fully temperature and time-controlled workflow, I'm getting what I would call 'professional grade' negatives that invert extremely easily using any of the methods I'm familiar with, and most importantly need minimal or no post processing to get my positive where I want it to be (essentially just setting the black point and little more). I'm pretty confident that these negatives will represent an excellent starting point for when I decide to try RA4 printing, in the future, too.

Advice for those people out there scanning their C41 negatives and are going crazy about colour casts that are difficult to fix in Photoshop and are giving you many headaches:

• Don't discount development inaccuracies as a likely source of the heavy complex colour casts you're seeing in your scans
• Go back to your workflow if you develop at home, and make sure you're really - really - accurate with times and temperatures.
• If you outsource development to a lab and are seeing heavy crossovers, change lab!
• Immediately dismiss any advice to 'wing it' and stuff like 'your negs are fine, you images are meant to be post-processed and colour graded, anyway'. Run like hell if someone gives you that 'advice', or ask them to show some of their samples before you run: they will inevitably look like poorly developed, heavily post-processed images
• You should't have to post-process away heavy colour casts, unless you enjoy that process, and unless random colour shifts are of creative interest, of course.

The only issue I have left now is to manage inaccuracies deriving from reusing the Adox C41 chemicals. I'm seeing worsening performance of the kit after the 8th or 9th film. I might try the Bellini kit next.

 

[koraks]

Way to go @albireo! Quality stuff.

 

[albireo]

Thank you so much Koraks for your leads in troubleshooting this, which were spot-on. I wish Adox would update their instructions based on your suggestion above.

 

[koraks]

Thanks for the kind words!

 

[Spektrum]

I'm afraid Adox won't update their instructions. Because they don't want to scare potential users with an overly complicated process. Now everyone wants to simplify everything. Using BLIX instead of separate BLEACH and FIXER is also a simplification that won't do any good. By the way, since the ADOX C-TEC C-41 kit discussed here is supposedly a 100% replacement for Tetenal Colortec, I'm wondering whether to separate BLIX into BLEACH (any fixer with a pH compatible with the C-41 process can be used), according to the instructions presented in the article on this forum:

Converting C-41/E-6 BLIX into Separate Bleach and Fixer

1 Introduction Many C-41 and E-6 kits come with BLIXes to remove silver. These BLIXes sometimes don't work all that well, and some of the BLIX concentrates have limited shelf life. The main purpose of this document is to provide a brief...

www.photrio.com

ADOX C-TEC C-41 is currently the cheapest C-41 kit available in Polish photographic stores. In Europe, the Italian Axel Color Kit C41 for Newbies is even cheaper (EUR 17.00 per liter), but this company does not put any effort into marketing its product. There is no information about using this kit, durability of chemicals, etc., and there are no SDSs on their website, which is probably against EU law, but never mind.

Another thing. If we want consistent results, I think we should develop a maximum of 8-10 rolls of film per liter within a week. If we start saving, the success of the process will only be a matter of luck.

 

[albireo]

Another thing. If we want consistent results, I think we should develop a maximum of 8-10 rolls of film per liter within a week. If we start saving, the success of the process will only be a matter of luck.

That is exactly my experience so far, Spektrum. Seems like the best workflow for this kind of activity is to amass 8-10 exposed rolls, crack open the Adox kit, do 2-3 rolls a day in small/medium tank within a week, and throw away the used chemistry.

 

[Spektrum]

Yes ! Collect about 8-10 pieces of exposed negative rolls. Store them in the refrigerator for better protection of undeveloped images from fading. Then open the C-41 kit and develop within one or several days. This applies to any kit developing C-41, not just Adox C-TEC.

 

[pentaxuser]

That is exactly my experience so far, Spektrum. Seems like the best workflow for this kind of activity is to amass 8-10 exposed rolls, crack open the Adox kit, do 2-3 rolls a day in small/medium tank within a week, and throw away the used chemistry.

Yes ! Collect about 8-10 pieces of exposed negative rolls. Store them in the refrigerator for better protection of undeveloped images from fading. Then open the C-41 kit and develop within one or several days. This applies to any kit developing C-41, not just Adox C-TEC.

In terms of C41 kits' longevity These statements seem very pessimistic So you really have to wait until you have exposed 8-10 rolls which might take a long time as that is maybe 360 negatives and then use kit in a week or if you can't wait that long you develop after 2-3 films then dump the kit or does this apply only to the Adox kit?

Doesn't this make home C41 processing a very expensive process ?

pentaxuser

 

[Spektrum]

Dear Pentaxuser,
In the case of home kits for the C-41 process, we must always agree to some compromise between the highest quality of development and the durability and efficiency of the chemistry.
No C-41 kit manufacturer will tell you the truth that 8-10 rolls is the maximum. They write about 12 rolls, others write about 16 rolls, and still others even about 20 rolls.

This is a marketing war between manufacturers. None wants to be worse.
We watch videos on YouTube and someone says that they developed even 24 rolls in C-41 Cinestill kits. But what do these developed films really look like?
Has anyone measured their parameters? Everything is assessed by eye and with the assumption that it will be scanned.

You can develop 16 rolls if the manufacturer writes about maximum 16 rolls, but don't expect a revelation. Remember that usually after developing of 4 rolls you have to extend the development time and this is already a big deviation from the correct C-41 process. Each deviation is an additional variable in the process affecting the quality of the entire process.

On this forum, most people who are deeply involved in the C-41 process also make their own chemistry from scratch. You use such chemistry for a maximum of two rolls in the process and pour it out. You have the best possible results and you can calmly approach the issue of using an enlarger and making color prints. You don't have to deal with the problems of inappropriate colors and a lot of effort in correcting color errors using filters.

My approach is this: Let's try to be the best at what we do. If we do analog color photography, let's take care of the correct exposure, the correct development of the film, and let's work all the time to improve our results. After some time, we will be like professionals. Nothing will surprise us anymore.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for the reply Spektrum but you have largely missed the point I was making. I was not talking about how many films the kit can process but the very restrictive period within which you have to use it to be sure of proper processing. A period of a week only was mentioned within which you have to process all 8 films. It you can't or don't want to wait until you have exposed 8 films before you can see any processed negatives and make prints but have only 2-3 films to process then you have to dump the rest of the kit

C41 home processing then becomes a very expensive and very inconvenient way to process C41 films

Are these applicable to all C41 kits or were you both talking about the Adox kit only

I don't recall such processing restrictions being mention in the many times I have seen threads on the life of C41 kits

pentaxuser

 

[Spektrum]

First of all, I am not an authority on the subject. My statements are based on my personal experience.

1. IMHO Maximum 8-10 rolls of film in one liter in 7-10 days applies to every C-41 kit available on the market. Not only to Adox.
2. What I wrote in the first point refers to the best possible results while minimizing all other variables affecting the quality of the film development.
This means that if you exceed the maximum number of rolls and the period of a 7-10 days, the film will also be developed, but the quality of the development will rather depend on luck.

C41 home processing then becomes a very expensive and very inconvenient way to process C41 films

Home C-41 development, if you want to achieve the highest quality results, will never be cheap using home C-41 kits. Unless you start using professional lab chemicals or make your own chemicals from scratch.

I don't recall such processing restrictions being mention in the many times I have seen threads on the life of C41 kits

I wrote above about my own experience. User @albireo confirmed it.

 

[albireo]

Thanks for the reply Spektrum but you have largely missed the point I was making. I was not talking about how many films the kit can process but the very restrictive period within which you have to use it to be sure of proper processing. A period of a week only was mentioned within which you have to process all 8 films. It you can't or don't want to wait until you have exposed 8 films before you can see any processed negatives and make prints but have only 2-3 films to process then you have to dump the rest of the kit

C41 home processing then becomes a very expensive and very inconvenient way to process C41 films

Are these applicable to all C41 kits or were you both talking about the Adox kit only

I don't recall such processing restrictions being mention in the many times I have seen threads on the life of C41 kits

pentaxuser

I think I was just suggesting that, based on my empyrical findings, the window of opportunity for this particular kit - based on how I expect my end result to be - is slightly smaller than what it says on the tin.

Basically what I'm seeing (but I clearly need to test more) is that halving both the number of maximum processed rolls and the shelf life of the mixed chemicals gives me consistent results.

Adox says 16 rolls max and 6 weeks before dumping the used chemicals. I think 8-9 rolls and 2-3 weeks max (ideally 1 week - 10 days honestly) is a better estimate based on the results I want to see.

Given that the kit costs 37 Euro and I can do everything at home in half an hour, and 37/8 = 4.5 Euro per roll is still much less than what I'd pay for lab development around here (120 roll film is strangely more expensive to process it seems), I'd say these kits still make a lot of sense.

 

[Spektrum]

What you wrote is true for every C-41 kit where the CD solution is not replenished.

Let's try to approach this logically. Each developed roll of film uses up (exhausts) chemicals, especially Color Developing Agent CD-4. In professional photo labs, replenishing should start on the second roll of film. In the case of home use C-41 kits, there is no replenishing and we try to compensate for this by extending the development time. This can work and the results will be fairly consistent up to a maximum of 8 rolls per liter. After that, with the next developed rolls we have a lottery. (I know, I'm repeating this for the 3rd time)
The same applies to the durability of the diluted chemistry. Look at the SDS cards of chemicals used in professional labs. Agent CD-4 is not very stable in solution with water and other chemicals. That's why the CD developer is supplied in 3 bottles. The manufacturer certainly adds a lot of preservatives to extend the life of the solution, but they can't overdo it, so that it doesn't negatively affect the development process.

And the same applies to bleach solutions and even more so blix, which are not very stable solutions. I suggest you read the article created by @Rudeofus about the problems associated with using BLIX and possible solutions. I provided the link in one of my posts above.

Of course, you are absolutely right about the economy. It still pays off and you don't have to rely on whether the lab will develop the film well or simply screw it up.

 

[pentaxuser]

What you wrote is true for every C-41 kit where the CD solution is not replenished.



And the same applies to bleach solutions and even more so blix, which are not very stable solutions. I suggest you read the article created by @Rudeofus about the problems associated with using BLIX and possible solutions. I provided the link in one of my posts above.

Of course, you are absolutely right about the economy. It still pays off and you don't have to rely on whether the lab will develop the film well or simply screw it up.

I had always thought that bleach lasts quite a long time and can be "renewed" I base this largely on what I have read here on Photrio

I agree that making your own C41 developer has to beat all commercial kits in terms of making developer as needed. Assuming Andrew O'Neill's chemicals and method of making colour developer is correct and his results seem to demonstrate it is correct or correct enough to produce OK negs that are perfectly printable by traditional means. It certainly doesn't look very difficult

pentaxuser

 

[Spektrum]

I felt like an ignoramus because I honestly didn't know who Andrew O'Neill was. I searched Google for the phrase "Andrew O'Neill C-41 Developer" and found his Instagram, and on Instagram a link to a YouTube video. I watched the video and it turned out that it wasn't any formula created by him. He uses Bill Laut's formula from https://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/c41_ra4_chemicals.htm

First of all, I would love to recommend the blog of our dear moderator Koraks and the page on his blog:

Color me purple – Some color developer formulas including C41 and RA4 – Koraks tinkers

tinker.koraks.nl

There you will find a comparison of several proven C-41 recipes, including Bill Laut's (Bonavolta) recipe. A huge amount of useful information.
You can treat this page as a manual for beginners. Also look at the comments section - there is also a lot of information there.
Koraks is from the Netherlands so his information about chemical availability is very useful for Europeans.

 

[koraks]

Thanks for your kind words @Spektrum, much appreciated! I'm glad you found that page I wrote useful. I merely collected the great work of others.
As to Andrew - he's actually our colleague moderator here on this forum: @Andrew O'Neill He has been doing some C41 processing lately and seems to be very happy with the results. I can attest from personal experience that the Bonavolta recipe yields printable negatives alright, and it's attractively simple.

 

[Spektrum]

Thanks for the info @koraks. Now I feel really ignorant that I didn't know anything about @Andrew O'Neill

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Thanks for the info @koraks. Now I feel really ignorant that I didn't know anything about @Andrew O'Neill

In case I haven't said it already, welcome to Photrio! I'm just getting over jetlag, and now find myself in the darkroom processing all the rolls I shot over in Japan (some of them Phoenix). I've been dabbling with C-41 for about a year now (a few videos on my channel). I'm mixing my own developer from the link koraks provided, as well as bleach. For the next films, I'm going to convert some Ilford Rapid fix (thanks for the info on how to do that, koraks!)

 

[koraks]

Thanks for the info @koraks. Now I feel really ignorant that I didn't know anything about @Andrew O'Neill

Nah man, it's totally fine! I just wanted to introduce you to Andrew and alert him of his name being mentioned - it's much nicer than finding out weeks after the fact that "hey, isn't that the same guy!?"

I'm going to convert some Ilford Rapid fix (thanks for the info on how to do that, koraks!)

Let me know how it works! And very much looking forward to the photos & videos - it's good to have you back!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Cheers!

 

[Spektrum]

In case I haven't said it already, welcome to Photrio! I'm just getting over jetlag, and now find myself in the darkroom processing all the rolls I shot over in Japan (some of them Phoenix). I've been dabbling with C-41 for about a year now (a few videos on my channel). I'm mixing my own developer from the link koraks provided, as well as bleach. For the next films, I'm going to convert some Ilford Rapid fix (thanks for the info on how to do that, koraks!)

Hello Andrew, nice to meet you here.

As for the conversion of Ilford Rapid Fixer, I understand that you use some kind of base, i.e. Sodium Hydroxide, Sodium Carbonate or just Borax to adjust the pH of the solution.

@koraks, do you have a best method?

TF-5, which is supposedly excellent as a C-41 fixer, is not available in Europe. I personally use Ole Fixer - OF-1 because I have a very large amount of Sodium Thiosulfate and I want to use it before it goes bad. When I run out of this chemical, I will probably buy Fuji C-41RA Fixer from a wholesaler because 10 liters are incredibly cheap here (15.00 EUR incl VAT). Until now, I could not buy it because the sale of these professional chemicals was restricted only to companies. On June 1st, I opened my micro company and now these doors are open to me.

Greetings guys from Krakow, Poland!